Noctifera wrote:snip

Firstly, thanks for your long, detailed post. Many other people usually just expect you to use "trial and error" to find the solution. I personally like to learn from other people, just so I don't touch the stove when it is on and mess up my life forever.

I'll try to address anything in the order of the statement.

Para 2/3/4: Yes, however is this "binding" thus keeping them against their will? I know that, as I said in the main post, "they chose me" however, maybe they choose not to hang about anymore (for any reason, not just poor "maintenance" for lack of a better phrase).

Para 5-5.whatever: It's not that I don't trust them. It's that I am skeptical about the whole ordeal. I know, shocking. I wanted to ask these questions not because I worry that my money was just going to further someone's vacation fund, but rather that I don't know if it will even work (some mixed reviews out there about CH, although for the sake of keeping my account I won't take a side and remain neutral). It's the unknown that scares me, however what coerced me to spend the $25.. Nope.. Now $30.. There was another sale... Anyway.. What convinced me to spend my money was the unknown. Much like calculating the risk/reward of betting at a snooker/bingo night or the suitability of jumping off a bridge if your hypotenuse is equal or lesser than the relation to the ground which you are jumping from.

Para 6 (I think): Yeah, so since the order is in, and already being processed.. I'm SoL for asking to change the "contract". Probably should have asked more questions beforehand.

Para 7: Again, 1hd ugh.. I hate explaining myself multiple times. So here we go. Never did I mean or want to insinuate that Ash or M were doing anything implicitly unethical. Technically "ethics" are up to each and every person in this forum as this is something that is not legally bound by any ethics (unless you count the Relational Worlds Theories, then you are talking about a capital offense, but we are still here talking so I doubt that's the case). I love the fact that I can be completely lazy and just sit back while M and A do their thing for me. Trying to summon ONE spirit was taxing enough to make me sick for weeks (still feeling the aftershocks) so I can't even imagine how they feel summoning hundreds to thousands each day. I respect them for the time, dedication, and respect they show to the spirits and their communities.

Para 8: You're probably right. But with many things, nothing ventured is nothing gained. When you light a candle in your mind, search for the answers, and then come back empty because it hasn't been done before, don't you want to chase after it? If you never drove a Rolls Royce, haven't you seen one and just went "I want to try to drive one of those at least once before I die"? The fact is that if we leave all these questions in our minds, who will be left to answer them when we are gone? We may never know the answers to those questions, and if we do, will we (you and me as we are now) truly be us?

PS: Thanks again for the brain food. You really helped me smile today and realize that the purchase was probably the right one. Thank you for your help and I hope that you don't scoff too much when you see my jokes, attempts at humor, or analogies. All I want to do is learn and you are helping me up the most difficult ladder of my life. Me and all my selves thank you.. All forty-seven thousand of them.

CerataPhthalma wrote:snip.. again

Also, sorry for being snippy. The past few weeks haven't been my best, about a week prior to my order, I also summoned a spirit myself. Thank you for the honest information and advice. Again, sorry for coming across like a man pickle.

Very interesting thread, *lurks* :included::

There are these threads about slavery:
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic59026.html
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic14129.html

and about binding vs attachment that Noc has mentioned:
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic14129-10.html
http://www.creepyhollows.com/faq/index. ... artlang=en

and the contract:
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/post587169.html
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic63290-10.html

darkwing dook wrote:Snip

Thanks for the reading material. o/

victorias wrote:While it was never my intention to offend you, nor do I believe that my message was offensive, but I understand how some may feel offended by it. By speaking to a spirit, doesn't mean that they cannot be coerced into saying one thing, or another.

Think of it like this: You are a manager at a store, and a robber comes into the store. Will you sacrifice your employs to simply save company face? Or will you rather attempt to save a life, with a possibility of loosing your job?

I know, hypothetical, but it paints the picture of the amount of unknowns. I came to the forums to attempt to get an understanding, not to be yelled at or castrated because I don't 100% understand what I want to understand, in thus I ask for help. Much like when you were being raised, you had your guardians to help you grow up and answer questions for you. You, as a more mature member of the forums, are my guardian when it comes to such a thing, you are the model person I look towards to see answers.

So in summary: I'm sorry if my three minutes of asking for help offended or bothered you in any way shape or form, but I wanted advice, not to be ridiculed and scoffed at.

It was never intended as ridicule.

If you do actually spend some time researching, and not just at Creepy Hollows, you will find that there are plenty of articles out there that can answer the questions you posed. Have you read this This This This This

I'm not going to lie, there have been (and still are) conjurers who coerce the spirits rather than get their willingness to assist. This is not a place where you'll find them.

I apologize, your example of the manager of the store doesn't really make sense to me. I'm unclear what kind of picture you're trying to paint. Do you mean as the Keeper, are you genuinely giving your spirit the choice between saving you or themselves? They have the freedom to choose. They don't have to protect you--once they get to know you (after the bonding process) they often choose to do so of their own will because they care about you. I certainly wouldn't expect them to take a metaphysical bullet for me without knowing me.

Also, just a suggestion, but if you make it part of your house rules that spirits in your Keep are not allowed to lie to you (which is one of mine), you can then ask them that question yourself with confidence that they will be telling you the truth as they see it.

I get the feeling from your initial post that you had this question about spirit slavery in mind but didn't actually spend time reading the posts in this forum that address your concern. If that comes across as harsh, I'm sorry. I don't intend to make you feel like you're not welcome here, but I would recommend you spend a little more time looking around (especially the stickied posts in this section) before making aspersions against Ash and Magnolia, as well as the Keepers here in the forum. That's all.

Hi Victorias,

I am trying to understand your point of view - I too am new to spirit keeping and I too have much to learn, but when I decided to dive into said matter, I did so knowing that I wouldn't always have all the answers, but that it would be MY responsibility to find the right PEOPLE that would be willing to lend assistance.

I have too.

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, you have to understand that YOU are now the one asking for assistance and guidance and the manner in which you choose to do said things, will ultimately be the deciding factor of the type of feedback that you receive in the process.

I can appreciate that your concerns, in your own opinion, is totally grounded. However having done ample research prior to your post, would have stood you in good steed and had you had all the facts, you would've PHRASED many of your paragraphs less harshly.

Creepy Hollows is a reputable place for higher learning and the owners of this site has worked VERY hard to gain their reputation and to make the type assumptions that you did, it just isn't DONE.

I can understand that many that have been here for years, from the beginning in fact will take offence and rightly so. They have been with ASH & MAGNOLIA for years , and many of them too have gifts and can easily discern for themselves what is and what is not ethnically correct- and by saying/assuming the things you have- you insult their intelligence as well.

If you had structured your post more respectfully, you would have garnered a lot more positive and helpful responses- of that I am sure.

This is a community of people that take what they do VERY personal and VERY serious too.

I will not bother to comment on the ethics involved when these spirits are bound- THIS business's reputation speaks for itself and I do not wish to talk for ASH & MAGNOLIA.

Furthermore there is a huge plethora of highly informative threads and encyclopaedia that will help to further your journey into the paranormal. You need only ask, if what you seek is not found within these threads, but I highly doubt that THAT will be the case.

In any case I hope my reply was not TOO harsh, because I only wanted to bring a little bit of perspective into the mix.

CrashingDown wrote:snip

Hey, Crash. Sure seemed like it. But, as I feel like being more of a rule-follower than yourself, I won't start any drama. 1a

And yes. I did read those articles and the posts, however I, as every smart person should, wanted more information. More information that you, were upset that I asked any questions. Did I read? Yes. Did you assume? Yes.

See, your sentiments here,

CrashingDown wrote:I'm not going to lie, there have been (and still are) conjurers who coerce the spirits rather than get their willingness to assist. This is not a place where you'll find them.

especially since you don't follow up with more information, makes me worried more. I want to be enthused and question everything, but your attitude towards me is rude and makes me not want to be a part of the forums. I do, I really do. But every time I ask a question, five other people like yourself give me a reason not to want to be here.

And no, the manager thing was much too complex, I'm sorry. No, I understand they won't take a bullet, and the fact is - They cannot. They still must abide by time/space continuum laws and unfortunately that means that they cannot effect a timeline in which you were meant to die. If they do, a catastrophic event would occur, killing most all humans and ending the timeline as we know it. Soooo.. Yeah, let's not have them take a bullet for me.

I've considered and reconsidered when I write my rules, and I can tell you that just like a pet, a friend, or my parents. My house (which actually is my brain in which helps sync across time/space, but again, separate story).

No, that would be what normal humans call "assumptions". I did not make "aspersions" (aka: Bonafide Slander) against M or A. Nor would I ever after the horror stories. Again, not taking sides.. Just making a statement. If I were to have made these slanderous statements against either, you and I would have never been talking in the first place as the post would have never been approved as it would have broken the rules of the forums.

So, respectfully, no. I'm sorry that you took my question the wrong way, then turned it into a way to bash me, a newcomer to the forums, rather than help to educate me.

DIVA_AT_LARGE wrote:snip

Holy crap! Lot's of text! I love you for it!~

Anywho, let's go para by para:

Para 1: Yes, that would be why I made a post in the first place to ask for help.

Para 3: Yes, I know, however it won't be the singular person who tells me what to do or what not to do, it will be the culmination of all knowledge which I have found by the time I make a decision (ie: I was abused as a child, so thus I can take the "good" lessons from my childhood and use those to become a better parent, but also know that the "bad" things that happened, are also lessons and teach me what not to be/do).

Para 4: I feel that I shouldn't need to be PC or "always right" in a forum about magicks which is constantly surrounded by questions and differing opinions. I'm not going to phrase something just so someone doesn't get their feeling hurt. Sorry.

Para 5: Yes, but they also have another reputation, again, not going to take sides, but I like looking at all sides as the glass being empty, rather than being half-full or half-empty. I'd rather have people convince me that I made the right choice by telling me their stories. Again, see para 4 in regards to feelings.

Para 6: Firstly, see para four about feelings. Secondly, that isn't my problem. If I went into a McDonald's you were working at, you wouldn't spit in my McDouble just because I gave you a dirty look when I walked in. What you see is what you assume to see. People do not know me, and what they get from me are assumptions. I am simply here, trying to get more knowledge, which thusfar has not happened. If people are skilled in the Arcane, or any other one of the million+ magicks, good. I'm happy for you! Congrats that you have 80+ years of experience! But, prove it by sharing your knowledge with others rather than getting snippy and upset because someone asked a question.

Para 7, 8, 9, 10: Again, see para four. Yes, it's personal and serious. But by looking at people and giving them the hypothetical middle finger, you are not helping anyone in that situation. No, I'd prefer you didn't speak for A or M. The fact is they are much too busy to get involved in such a debacle and if they were to make a press statement, I'm not sure it would make a difference. I'm one of those "see it to believe it" kinda people. Stories go a long way, but show and tell goes much further. Finally, there is a tonne of info in the FAQ and the threads, but unfortunately it just is too difficult to navigate and needs updated. Maybe if I wanted to learn about every little thing and it was properly indexed, I'd be okay, but I don't, and it's not.

Finally, I respect your perspective and you are much less harsh than the other person.. Forgot their name, tho. I respect what you are trying to say, but just because people get offended by something I type, doesn't mean it's right to respond the way they did. It makes the forums look bad and it also makes the company look bad. Again, the best approach would have been to share a story, tell a tale, share a thread, and then move on. But they didn't.

Being blunt about my roots with spirit keeping, I actually had similar viewpoints to yourself starting out prior around 5 years ago for myself.
My first was similar to a summon (intent) and I knew nothing about Creepy Hollows or conjurers prior.
I stayed in contact with a community that blogged about their experiences with succubus, but information was always left out on particular points. Individually it raised issues for me, such as "how can you have so many succubus by your side?" "is one not enough?" "why do you have that blissful expression about your succubus, are you high or something?" ect.
Some failed to mention that they'res were from a conjurers shop, others just did their summoning again till satisfied. Eventually someone brought up spirit keeping and I wasn't fond of the guy on a personal level back then, so I attacked and asked pensive questions and very similarly OP's opening comments used to be how I saw things.

When people came forward and was more specific, I was pretty surprised and had a really good reality check of myself. Words like "keeping", "binding", and don't to mention just in general nasty rumors can leave a bad triggered impression and everyone insulted was very fair to be and in their rights. It was a past ignorance and I'm pretty thankful that all happened cause my views on things like "One individual for another" and "love who you say you love and mean it" became more defined as morals like "their are so many different types of love to experience".
I'm happy with being a spirit keeper now, I still have my loving ubi by my side and it's been a journey, our love has grown to being a family and I adore all my spirits and entity's.
There are moments I wish I could do again, if I knew about the shops and more about magickal pursuits, I could've given more clarity back then to help but we all move on.

When it comes to A&M, I made my first impressions on their helpfulness and they were usually swift in my experience when it came to Help Desk and clarifying any problems. It's fine to be cautious, but if I denied any calling from the first spirit I got from here, my mermaid D would still be sitting in the shop and never knowing what could've been is admittedly sensitively painful from my part now that I know what it's like for her to be around. True, you can't have them all and some just won't fit you in general, but I talk with my spirits everyday through telepathy or just basic channeling when I'm in the mood for it.
I get it, we all get snippy and sometimes self doubting of what we can do, it really surprises me how far I came. I no longer keep a blog btw, if I saw the post count, I'd probs be surprised in more then one way.