IN MODERN TIMES, ANCIENT TIMES, & IN FAERYTALES YOU ALWAYS HEAR ABOUT A HORRIBLE CURSE THAT HAS AN ESCAPE CLAUSE; IF SOMEONE HAS TRUE LOVE'S KISS, IF SOMEONE REACHES A CERTAIN POINT BY A CERTAIN TIME OF DAY OR YEAR, IF SOMEONE REACHES A CERTAIN AGE, OR IF THEY PERFORM A CERTAIN TASK THE CURSE IS LIFTED. OFTEN THESE CURSES ARE DEPICTED AS BLACK ARTS OR BLACK MAGIC BUT IS IT REALLY BLACK IF AN ESCAPE CLAUSE IS GIVEN?

IF SOMEONE CURSES YOU IT CERTAINLY ISN'T A NICE THING BUT IT WOULD REALLY FALL MORE IN THE LINES OF DARK ARTS THAN BLACK ARTS IF THEY GIVE YOU AN OPPORTUNITY TO ABSOLVE THE EFFECTS OF THE CURSE. MANY TIMES YOU'LL SEE THE CURSE IS A METHOD OF TEACHING SOMEONE A LESSON, OR REVENGE FOR SOMETHING THEY THINK YOU DID TO THEM OR A LOVED ONE.

THOUGHTS ON THE SUBJECT?

well ash, a topic which one can really sink our teeth into, thanks! in my honest opinion from my studies black magick is neither forgiving nor would it offer an escape from it's clutches. spellwork or enchantments containing that which you speak of would more than likely fall within the dark arts range and perhaps even an enchantment where karma gets a chance to have a hand at the ending. from my training with the black arts there is simply one reason to use it and unfortunately if you resort to this end you really are not thinking of being either forgiving or giving a chance to get out safely.

grey magick, dark magick, more than likely in a case to either teach a lesson or even to offer some retribution on a smaller scale but with a way to safely avoid the pitfalls set into the original enchantment. because i do not work with the black arts regularly but more so on a refresher basis every now and then and then even certainly not against anyone (that just isn't who i am but i recognize the significance of a white worker knowing the black arts), going over the work that my mentor did leave to me in the black arts i really don't see how an escape clause could be added even. these are just my thoughts but for now i would think something of this nature would be a dark grey enchantment. there is so much more to the color scheme of magick besides white or black like sometimes when i work with angel magick with the angels in my keep the color begins to take either a golden, silver or even opalescent sheen; my vamps sometimes shed a bit of burgundy, dark red and even dark grey to the mix and the fae can bring amazing colors of the rainbow as well as celestial colors of a nebula.

magick worked is all about intent along with our focus and black magick is synonymous with wanting something bad to happen to another so the intent is harm. i'm really not sure there would even be a reason to allow someone the chance to get out of it unless that part of the enchantment has been placed upon the spellwork by another with good intent. now that is always a scenario that could make the escape clause plausible. just my thoughts. great thread ash! :lildevil:

I do have a question, Have any of you ever encountered subjects of such a curse..Or, can people throw curses with such escape clauses?..I would have thought, when people curse you.. there are no escape clauses..But then again, what do I know about these things.Still, it would be nice to know someone still had a bit of a conscience or heart if they decided to throw a curse this way :think:

good question but i have never seen a curse that would allow the recipient to get out of it. some of the old cultural curses can last through generations of the family it was cast upon. placing curses on someone or even a group is another one of those actions that should require a lot of forethought prior to following through - and never ever should someone curse someone simply out of anger without thinking the consequences of both sides. oi vey, please remember magick is powerful and if the intent is to harm someone more than likely as long as the person knows what they're doing through the proper training, it's what is going to come to fruition. just thoughts from a very cranky crone today. :witch:

as someone who believes they have been cursed i am going to say they all suck.

Excellent Topic Ash. You and crone bring up good points, but this all rounds back down to INTENT. Curses that can be lifted should certainly fit in the dark arts category but what about curses that were intended to be permanent but happened to be lifted with the help of a powerful Arcane Mage or by divine grace? Both sides can certainly end up finding there purpose or learn a lesson by this but it's still an @ssholish move to do. As sad stated I've got plenty of stuff thrown at me and my family already.

For instance My Grandmother from my Father's Side was born from a Love Affair. So even before she was born a Woman Jealously angry of the actions put a Hex on her. She Practiced Santeria. I dont know the full story entirely, But her side of the family had problems with this woman. And all her life she's had bad luck and things following her ever since. Even my Great Grandfather Who Was a Holy Man. Considered a Saint lived to be a 110 would come by the house and the spirits attached to her, And he would banish them out Yelling at the top of his lungs "GOD Does not want you in this House!!" To me it looked like he was yelling at nothing but i couldn't imagine what he was seeing.
It was pretty scarey... It wasn't until 6 years ago That my Grandmother took a flight down to Florida to settle this quarrel until which they had a talk they made peace afterwords. Since then the hex was supposedly lifted and her life has improved much better. Since the spirits have left. I don't know where the lesson is to be learned in this but anyone would be horrible for anyone to curse someone before they are even born at which they have no faults!! <_<

It seems to me that we are looking at many factual situations but that the lens for looking could be a different and more modern one.

WHITE MAGICK - White the Colour? Whie a consortium of ALL COLORS EXCEPT BLACK? Sunlight? Daylight? The Mystical Light "ALBA" of the Troubadours and Dante? Virginity (as NO bleeding has taken case in a virginal setting, when women as sexual beings are looked down upon? Aten of Akhanaton? RA - the solar &"light" God? Lucifer - the Light Bringer? The Planet Mercury? The Mental World of No Contradiction? Saint Thomas Aquinas Theology? Newtonian-Einsteinian Science? The writings of Plato? HEaling?

BLACK & DARK MAGICK - Black - the absence of colour yet a colour anyway? Night time both with & without starlight and Moonlight? The Mysticall "No-Light" or "No White Light Predominance? The Obvious Post-Virginal Real and The Not-So-Obvious Pre-Virginal Realm? (Bleeding is acceptable. Women as Sexual Being are shown to be more powerful than Men as Sexual Beings? The Darkness of Vanth? The Darkness of Charon? AMUN- The God of Shadow and Invisibility? The Planet Pluto? The Unconfirmed Planet Lillith? The Mental World of Contradictions? Buddha's, Kierkegaard's, and LeVey's theology? Neils Bohr's Quantum Theory? Superstring Theory? The writings of C. Howard Hinton on Time & Dimensions? The conversations of Socrates? Surgery?

And it seems that we actually need both at the same time for adequate balance.

Rules can have "FLEX" in them, but at the same time they cannot be done away with (The deregulation of American Investment equaling the Permanent Fall of the American Empire is a recent example for me because I want to see the fall of this Empire & its Fanatics...but I don't want to see the impovreshment of innocent, good, hard-working people...)

So perhaps the WHite has flex in bending the rules (when needed) and the DARK has steadiness in maintaining the rules (when needed) and in other cases the WHITE is steadfast in maintaining the rules...and the DARK has flex in bending the rules...

AMUN-RA

YIN-YANG

RELATIVE-ABSOLUTE

FEMALE-MALE

WHITE-DARK

Together these are all 2 aspects, each making up 50% of a Unitary System THAT WILL NEVER END........

Cheers,
CAIYROS-SORYIAC

Still Black Arts - IMHO, absolutely! The intented merely escapes that specific consequence, and in doing so, causes what? ends up where? :scared:
Knowledge of the possibility of escape, the hope, the struggle to escape, the escape - but the escape takes the intented out of the sizzling frying pan and into a more 'painfully' exquisite fire! More than just experiencing either frying pan or fire, to have hope raised and dashed, struggle hard but pointless - for both hope and struggle against the first BA action, its escape, have ONLY put the intented, by his/her own actions, into a more horrific second BA consequence(s), that pierce on multiple levels only if the 'escape' is successful. And the complexity of despair, pain and consequence can continue on, to level 3 or 4 or ... Can anything be more deliciously satisfying to a BA practioner who also enjoys finesse and complexity - or brutality and complexity!
In stories or movies, one character often warns another: 'you could die - or worse!' If 'die' represents the first consequence of the BM, then, Yes, there is definitely 'worse'!
However, this may not be what you meant, Ash, but something that leapt to mind, with a little help from DA spirits and your Vampire, Werewolf, Wraith Fusion :crazy: !............ FF :pumpkin:

I think most people don't even know the spectrum of spells. To most it is either black or white. The whole grey area is too much to dissect. A person either feels benefit or not. Anything that benefits is white and those that harm is black. I didn't know about the clause. Shoot I didn't get the memo.

Cursing is futile. Since the person being curse doesn't really learn their lesson, they instead think the curser is an vile human being. When teaching someone a lesson that's really not an effective way to get one's point across. It's just as immature as showing someone how they wronged you by doing the same to them. Most people don't get they are the instigator instead call the curser a hypocrite. Vicious circle.

I think all this cursing is a form of passive aggressiveness. What ever happened to open communication, like telling them they hurt your feelings? If we really are nice and kind to others is it impossible to believe that most people aren't out to get us? True there maybe some people who may appear to never learn because they are broken or have mental issues. But then again, that's a judgement that may or may not be true. Most of us find out when we stop fearing the other person.

Just my two cents, but if someone wants power over another person, what will make them die for you and do anything for you is to love them. Give them what they long for rather than beating them with our over glorified sense of authority. I feel sorry for black magicians who curse the wrong people and end up eating it. I don't know about all black magician, but I get the sense that most of them tend to have a tough life, some of their doing and some because of the rebound affect. You never know who's got powerful protection. Better to just play nice.

suga wrote:Cursing is futile. Since the person being curse doesn't really learn their lesson, they instead think the curser is an vile human being. When teaching someone a lesson that's really not an effective way to get one's point across. It's just as immature as showing someone how they wronged you by doing the same to them. Most people don't get they are the instigator instead call the curser a hypocrite. Vicious circle.

I think all this cursing is a form of passive aggressiveness. What ever happened to open communication, like telling them they hurt your feelings? If we really are nice and kind to others is it impossible to believe that most people aren't out to get us? True there maybe some people who may appear to never learn because they are broken or have mental issues. But then again, that's a judgement that may or may not be true. Most of us find out when we stop fearing the other person.

i actually witnessed someone being cursed by a gypsy woman. it wasn't because of hurt feelings though. the family just wanted to send a message to the surgeon that was performing her open heart surgery. they wanted him to know that if something happened to her then he would die, no ifs ands or buts about it. they placed a curse that would take effect in the event of her death, IF she should die. he became so scared that he decided to allow one of his partners to do her surgery instead. which in this case was a good thing since his partner was the better surgeon. lol

as far as curses goes (for me at least) i don't believe in them. never have and probably never will. even before i started collecting spirits. i believe that we all get into strings of bad luck now and then. just like we have lucky streaks now and then. it is the balance of the universe.

as far as an escape clause my BA mage laughs at the ideal. he doesn't see why one would even be considered. to him it would just show how weak that mage's magic was. don't know if that's true or not.