NoctemAeternus wrote:Some will argue they just take to this extreme better, which in turn I could argue - as being humans we are DA and I don't see why that would be. Of course it is possible to feel that connection despite how unnatural it may appear given the facts - however, that does not mean it is at all rational to apply so exclusively. Honestly I have to question your state of mentality already if you feel this exclusive bond with BA, it would signify some extent of instability and therefore inability to "safely" work within the realm of BA.. at that point the individual wouldn't care for themselves -- the danger is for others.
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Thank you so much for pointing this out, particularly given your breadth of experience with BA.

Na'rayah Earth wrote:Just want to add as well, for me personally, I would heavily discourage anyone new to both Spirit Keeping AND practising in magick from even considering diving straight into the practise of BA.

I still stand by my feelings that if one is sound in the above mentioned by Noc, the very best is to be taught by a BA Master. I can understand that not everyone has access to that, but understand that it is then even MORE risky and dangerous to undergo on your own.

Very good advice! I should think that if one can't find a BA master to learn with, then they shouldn't attempt to learn on their own, period. No one needs it so badly that they could justify the consequences of doing it on their own.

I'm even treading lightly with WA until I find a good mentor in my area. I don't want to be a "dabbler", remaining static at the first step of "dipping my toes in"; but I don't want to screw things up by attempting to "self teach" in the area of spellwork either. So for now meditation, communication with my spiirts, and shielding are my main focuses. There is a whole world of information on the forum and the encyclopedia, but it doesn't replace the need for an actual person guiding you through it.

I feel that a lot of these things needed to be said Noc, so thank you very much for putting it out there. Like I said on Bellatrix's thread, I have no intention of getting into BA at any point in my life. However, there are many that do and they need the hear what people like you guys have to say. When people are hurting, mentally unstable, or just down right immature, the BA may seem very alluring. But those frames of mind are the most dangerous to be in for this stuff!

Very good post, I also believe BA is something one should learn from a master to many risks learning just from books. But I do feel some poeple that say they are dealing with BA are just on darkest part of DA. Again is something good to learn when you have who to help you but as long they don't ignore WA and DA. That is way I like DA so much I find it more balanced than WA and BA, that are extremes.

one should learn ANYTHING from a master if they have the chance. :thumbup:

I was bidding on a Lilith vortex from the VS bros yesterday, Hans & Heini had to pull it off from the listing and said its too dangerous for me to keep. Even the vessel was only $30, but it will absorbs energy from my weaker companions & then from me eventually..and more vampys & Succubus will come from there later :mummy:

Nice thread, noc. I've been concerned and perplexed by a message given to me very out of the blue recently, I think by one of the spirits in my keep. I was told that I must learn BA to ultimately reach where I want to be. I found/find this to be distirbing, considering I have no desire to learn black magic or keep BA spirits, although I do keep some very dark spirits. I have been tjinking about it and the only thing about this that would make sense to me would be to educate myself on BA at some point not practice it. For whatever reason, this message was given to me. I would never delve into it alone- ever. I would seek a mentor. Anyway, very informative thread, thanks!

moongypsy wrote: I have been tjinking about it and the only thing about this that would make sense to me would be to educate myself on BA at some point not practice it.

I think this above all else would be a great reason to delve into it, and could easily be why you were given that message. It would be a very wise thing for occultists to learn the ways of all the spectrum.. WA, DA, and BA - understand them for balance.
Of course you don't need to practice it, follow your instincts; knowledge is key.. and then who can be certain of what the future holds.

I picked up a lot of tips in this thread and had to bump it.

Let me start off by saying... I do not believe that any path is wrong. I do not believe that anything that you deliberately choose to do to yourself is wrong. I do not believe I have the right to judge you, your path, your choices... Except where they begin to impact other people in a harmful way that is not deserved.

Shooting the spree killer is fine. Shooting the little old lady stalling your car at the crosswalk because you slept that extra 15 minutes and are now late to work... not so much.

I do not believe that the BA, which I occasionally have had to practice, are wrong. I do not believe that DA, which I practice regularly, are wrong. I do not believe that WA are the only true, proper, right way to practice magick. I also don't believe that WA cannot combat BA or DA, and I do not believe that WA are weaker or less malleable.

I do not believe that everyone who practices BA or DA has fallen down the rabbit hole.

I believe that we live in a world where learning about the BA is essential - if only for reasons of sheer self-preservation. There are idiots on the road, and if you're going to be driving a plastic car, you should take a Defensive Driving Course.

Practicing the BA, however - and I'm not talking pulling them out as a last ditch effort, but actually PRACTICING THEM, all by their lonesome - is addictive and damaging, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and sometimes physically. It changes the shape of your soul. Literally. And it leaves STAINS YOU WILL NEVER GET OFF (well, not without Divine intervention), which brand you as that kind of practitioner to everyone who can See, and even those who CANNOT See get a subtle feeling about you. Eventually, most BA practitioners who don't know what they're doing or how to protect themselves from their Art, and I know, because I've had to clean up the mess, become so mentally unstable that they no longer care about others, or themselves. They lash out for no reason, just to get their next fix... and they come across as deranged, and ALWAYS afraid.

I don't PRACTICE the BA because I don't want to live in that crazy place where everything is always someone else's fault, I'm always touchy and afraid, and I'm so stained I can't see straight. For me, it's not a path, it's not a lifestyle. Most of the time, what I deal with can be resolved with DA anyway... cursing someone is rarely necessary - a simple Justice spell works wonders on most issues. Knowing Demonology is just plain sense - knowing how to get that Thing that just showed up out of your house is smart... but that's about as far into the BA as I've ever really needed to go. I'm OK with that, having seen the damage the BA do to others.

I've studied JUST ENOUGH to keep my head above water in a tight situation, because for some reason, Healer or not, I seem to frequently end up in combat situations... but given the choice between breaking myself to make a problem worse, or breaking myself to make someone healthy again, I know which one is going to do less spiritual damage and leave my mind intact, despite the heartache.

Every BA practitioner I've ever met in person has been all ego and fear, no heart, no compassion. They've lost touch with their humanity, and honestly, with themselves and reality at large, and become all about the Power - which, being all twisted, has warped their minds into some weird kind of fantasy-land where everyone who blinks is hurting them and deserves what they get... And almost all of them has been under some form of either Influence or worse. Be careful which doors you leave open - go far enough down that hallway, and suddenly your thoughts, your will, aren't your own anymore... you just THINK they are.

I'm not always very good at being human, and I'm all about the Power - while having MORE can be, in some respects, an absolute Curse, the applications of Power in the situations I often find myself in are absolutely amazing... Having enough power to remove all the chakras and channels of a woman who's dying well before her time because she was attacked by a BA practitioner who shredded her system from the inside up, while keeping her breathing and being able to replace that whole system, laying in a new grid, new channels, new chakras on all the layers including organs, bones, joints, and higher bodies, making all those thousands of cross-connections and careful balances, re-blooming the chakras... in about four hours of work... that's the kind of Power and knowledge I've traded my life for... but... as you see, the application is completely different.

I wade into a situation without considering myself, and my thoughts are all about how can I use the Power to make this better, to help the broken people. All the BA practitioners I've ever met wade into situations thinking "What can I get for myself out of this... how do I prove I'm bigger, badder, stronger than you, and how do I come out on top." They live in a world of anguish and shadows and their minds are full of fighting rats.

However, as I've said... if I actually meet you... it's probably because you're a problem. The BA practitioners who actually know what they're doing and don't NEED to be nailed down... they'll probably never come across someone like me. Who knows... maybe we'd be good friends. *shrugs* It'd be nice if they, too, policed their own...

Please keep in mind... I'm not maligning DA or BA practitioners in any way. The way I see it... the balance is absolutely necessary... WA, BA, DA - all needed... and without all three, that balance, and our ability to have free will with it, would disappear. I am a DA practitioner. I've had to become one, because I DO seem to have a knack for making the crazies come out of the cracks and run at me - and those under my protection - and, well... someone's got to make sure they can't keep hurting random strangers on the street just because "That guy blows bigger bubbles than me..." There are some people who shouldn't be allowed to own a gun, because they're too crazy to realize that's not a tree they're shooting, it's a person...

And I'm sure there are BA practitioners out there who HAVEN'T fallen off the Crazy Wagon on their way to Selfishville... You, the reader, might be one of them. I just haven't met you yet.

The point is... there's a definite price to Magick in general, but with BA it's pretty obvious... and it happens quickly. If you're going to go there... be prepared to pay that price. Be smart about it. Don't be all "I am the Great and Powerful Oz," don't get drunk and put yourself into a position where someone else is going to come along to clean your clock.

NO ONE is the biggest fish in the pond. No one is invulnerable to the consequences of their choices and the actions that arise out of those choices.

And I'm not talking Karma. I'm not sure I believe in Karma. I've never seen it in effect. I've seen truly horrid people live wonderful lives where nothing ever goes wrong, and I've seen truly saint-like people constantly shat on.

I'm just saying magick bites back.

Brightest blessings...
Selqet