CaiyrosArlenLeStrang wrote:I think Mags is making sense and I think the rest of you and your posts on this thread are spinning private attitudes, besides the point, or are egotistically wrong and willfully playing superior. Basically its idiotic, because either people are talking about "Not Themselves" (Frater for instance) or the Starter of this thread are talking about their own private world and implying validation by doing that (several) or are trying keepthings from getting out of control...when there is no possibility of talking sense into people (Killa) and myself for wasting my time trying to define some basic things in what we call the real world and reading sophomoric arguements about democracy from people who have never read Greek philosophy in greek where the subtleties begin (the subtlety of the dual case) and so on......this is nothing more than a bar brawl without broken glass and chairs.....It is a total waste of time kiddies and hoodies.......
Where are the real people who are trying to reach ....DUH...some Common Ground....and if people want to talk about demons on and on and say the saying thing on all sides over and over...fine...but its getting tiresome....

Hey, anyone here know about the Fire Spirits that Underline the Abramelin Squares?

Or how easy it is to use the 2,3, Sephera perhaps along with the 6th...but be sure you understand what Da'ath means...and the qliphotic shells will leave you alone. Oh! Lets talk about the Cwyth! You first!

I am sick of this pompousness. Truth is not an ego mirror. Its a tool.

Screw this!
Caiyros

CaiyrosArlenLeStrang wrote:Mesage to Frater
But the silent question remains are we going to wallow in medeocrity, by playing with profundity and basically turning learning into something that would feeed some vacancy into persons who have a cell-phone addictive mind of (for instance) "I've seen a picture of the Tree of Life....so I can skip the Sepher Yetzirah and why bother with Austin Spare "He doesn't make any sense....so let's all stay on a comfort zone level and so on......

Medeocrity is what can kill the human race...and I have feelings about it. As for Democracy....the real problem is the concept in our culture has been dumbed down to idiocy.....We should be able to be accurate instead of ..."well we're just chatting ...no need to do all that hard stuff....you have some god ideas and you're smart...but you haven't done your homework on Greek Mysticism and how it works...and true democracy has mystical aspect that cannot even be discussed...because a vocabulary is need and to grasph that "vocabulary" (not referring to Greek language)...there is no way to grasp the concepts. Also, the Tibetan understanding of Dharmapalas..finding out about that would be damned interesting for this discussion, but well..."Its too much work..."...yadayadayada.....or what class of demons are being talked about....

Has anyone investigated the realm of Pure Fear.....which is generally getting to close to Kether and being buzzed really hard...and then not knowing what happened...but the most amazing form of fear is a form of fear that is ONLY TRUTH FORMED INTO AN ENERGY BEYOND COMPREHENSION...I bet a few people here have felt that, but why bother to talk about it further than this...generally speaking these days there is a lot of ."oh that's to much for my frail mind"......so it devolves into a byzantine version of complaining over a telephone because the person in question is too mentally lazy to actual try to learn something that is more difficult or detailed than a computer game......Oh computer games are hard...well then create the proof for Rheimann's Hypothesis.......REALLY! Then why and I could go on and on and I assume you know a good bit about this.....

And lastly, if you must talk down to me rather than talk on an equal level...then just don't bother, otherwise go ahead...

Caiyros

or what class of demons are being talked about....

Yes,would be nice to know what type of demons we are discussing please....Are we talking about pathological demons? Mythological? Or Theological? Christian mythology? Demons in Zoroastrianism? Assyrian mythology? Gnosticism? Slavic? Sumerian? :evilbat:

Or just a general lump of demons? :think:
I'm by no way an expert but i know little random (and some useless) bits of stuff

CaiyrosArlenLeStrang wrote:I think Mags is making sense and I think the rest of you and your posts on this thread are spinning private attitudes, besides the point, or are egotistically wrong and willfully playing superior. Basically its idiotic, because either people are talking about "Not Themselves" (Frater for instance) or the Starter of this thread are talking about their own private world and implying validation by doing that (several) or are trying keepthings from getting out of control...when there is no possibility of talking sense into people (Killa) and myself for wasting my time trying to define some basic things in what we call the real world and reading sophomoric arguements about democracy from people who have never read Greek philosophy in greek where the subtleties begin (the subtlety of the dual case) and so on......this is nothing more than a bar brawl without broken glass and chairs.....It is a total waste of time kiddies and hoodies.......
Where are the real people who are trying to reach ....DUH...some Common Ground....and if people want to talk about demons on and on and say the saying thing on all sides over and over...fine...but its getting tiresome....

Hey, anyone here know about the Fire Spirits that Underline the Abramelin Squares?

Or how easy it is to use the 2,3, Sephera perhaps along with the 6th...but be sure you understand what Da'ath means...and the qliphotic shells will leave you alone. Oh! Lets talk about the Cwyth! You first!

I am sick of this pompousness. Truth is not an ego mirror. Its a tool.

Screw this!
Caiyros

creepyhollows wrote:

Well on topic, Magnolia and/or Frater, can you give us some more insight elaborating in-depth about the protocol, like where do you draw the line? How can you tell the tell-tale signs of real Demonic Oprression?

I can't speak for Frater at all, but as far as Creepy Hollows (myself & Ash) go, I will give you a brief overview. I don't want to go into the whole procedure because it's long, and just the more detailed step-by-step of the overview I'm about to give.

Basically, professional protocol dictates:

1. Gather all information on any medical issues; previous, outstanding, expected. And, if the case is SEVERE then it can require a full physical by a physician (including blood work, EKG, etc).
2. Gather all information on any mental issues; previous, outstanding, expected.
3. Gain a full report of ALL activities performed by the person in, at least, the last 30 days, preferably 90 days (or longer if the attack has been longer).
4. If the person is in the Arts, is a practitioner, or follows a regimented religious group, or is a member of a secret organization, all duties fulfilled, all rituals, spells, ceremonies, etc that have been performed or cast.
5. If the person is a collector of the paranormal; all artifacts brought into the home up to 30 days PRIOR to the first incident. Artifacts include ANY antiques, previously owned items (garage sales, thrift stores, etc), spirited vessels, spelled vessels, haunted artifacts. And a list of any spells cast.
6. A list of all the new acquaintances (usually first name, occupation, how/where they met, etc)

And, most importantly, an entire account of everything that has happened since the first incident to the present day. I mean everything. Any noises, odors, sounds, visions, dreams, emotions, temperature variances, any change in bodily functions. And usually we require that someone keep a full journal while we are helping, which includes recording anything & everything that happens during the day, and their dreams at night.

Of course, these are subject to the situation, circumstances, etc. But, you'd be surprised how many times the smallest detail can unravel a mystery. And, certainly in our years we've been surprised at the source of attacks. For the few members here who remember our VERY first forum in 2006, you'll remember the woman who bought a $1k Victorian, hand-crafted mirror at an antique store that had actually previously belonged to a practicing witch (come to find out), and since the antique store owners didn't believe in "that stuff" they didn't tell anyone that they had bought it at an estate sale of that witch's ancestors. And, after we had the list of artifacts she'd brought into the home, I asked for the phone number of the antique store where she bought it, I called them about the mirror & if they knew where it came from, any history behind it, etc and come to find out all of this history behind the mirror wasn't presented to potential buyers because they didn't believe in it, and therefore didn't think it would have any impact. It wasn't demons, it was a real, negative energy coming from the mirror in what we surmised was a cast-back spell to the Spiritual Realm; likely for divination purposes.

The diagnosis process can be from a moderate amount of time, to a greater amount of time, depending entirely on the cooperative nature of the person, the source of the trouble, and whether we are diagnosing in person, or not.

Frankly, for severe cases, we'll gather all the information and refer it to someone local to the person who is a professional in the field.

I have recently experienced that in rare cases a seller (I'm guessing a fairly new one,although I don't know them) labeling their spirited vessel as "demon". I have asked why this could have happened from another seller that we all know and love,and she says sometimes a conjurer will give it the stamp of "Demon" because they just don't know what it is.

In my case,it was my devata. Way off. :facepalm::

creepyhollows wrote::rant:
After spending a few hours in Helpdesk with some of the Magnolia & Ash-specific tickets, I can tell you that there is a piece of gritty sand irritating me, and the sand is the plethora of "demon" issues.

I've had 10 tickets in the last week with people saying "I need you to confirm what so-and-so told me about (insert name of whoever is in trouble) being attacked by demons". 10 tickets, one week, 7 days, 240 hours, 14,400 minutes... and the first one I opened I knew what it was, I forwarded it to Ash, he said exactly what I thought it was, and I linked them to a thread here where someone else had a similar situation and it was not a demon. An hour later they wrote back and they said the person's situation on the thread was exactly what they were going through.

The answer to everyone's problems cannot always be "demons". Did I miss a time warp where we have gone back to the Catholic doctrine of the Middle Ages by labeling everything that is "evil" or causes someone a problem as "demon"? Has the paranormal community actually reverted from being able to correctly identify individual beings to simply just "demonizing" everything? For what, to make it simpler? Sure, it would be easy to just tell anyone with a problem, "it's a demon"... but shouldn't the pursuit of the paranormal community to CORRECTLY identify individual species & beings, rather than just slapping the "demon" label on everything?

And, when did single demon attacks become faux pas? Now every "demonic" attack is multiple demons? Tens? Hundreds? Did I miss the memo that said now single demons are no longer capable of attacking people, they now have to travel around like a caravan?

Perhaps it is my years of study, my education, or my vast experience, but the trend for the past few years to just shove everything in the "demon" category is really unnerving. The answer, by sheer statistics, cannot always be "demon"!!!

There thousands of other entities in the world, millions between all the Realms, dimensions, and Universe that are capable of causing someone trouble. You would be SHOCKED what an errant, belligerent, human spirit can do to torture a living human. Incubi/Succubi, Vampires, Gargoyles, Cambions, Manananggals, just to name a few that are regularly kept by Spirit Keepers were classified "DEMONS" by the church. Are they demons? NO.

Demon is a word that is so grossly overused I would love to make it illegal for someone to call something a demon without them providing the TRUE classification of a demon. "Demon" is NOT a classification in itself. When someone tells you that you have a "Demon" you should IMMEDIATELY say "Okay, what classification of demon is it?". And I am not going to write a cheat sheet here for anyone to copy. Anyone who truly deals with demons should know the classifications and once they give you the actual classification & name of the demonic being then you can verify it from there.

Are demon attacks possible? Yes. However, they don't usually attack in DROVES, there is usually a singular demon who attacks a person. Multi demon attacks are far more rare and certain criteria happens that would tell a professional that they are, indeed, dealing with a multi demon attack, and I assure you those criteria are NOT what you see in the Hollywood exorcism films.

Through the years, Ash & I have assisted in LITERALLY thousands of human issues with troublesome entities, and I can tell you that "demon" wasn't the answer to them all. We've assisted in minor disturbances to major, serious issues. And we follow a very strict, professional protocol when dealing with people with real problems. There is a code by which those who help truly plagued individuals follow because it works, because it's tried & true, and because it takes knowledge & experience to execute. And, again, "demon" isn't the answer to every situation.

Misdiagnosis is a problem, slight for some, serious for others, and if you are having a problem, I PROMISE you that getting a crowd of people involved in the diagnosis & recovery of your issue is NOT the way to go. The "too many cooks in the kitchen" syndrome is a syndrome for a reason. You need to work with one person, MAYBE two, at a time, and if you're going to work with two people they should be in communication with each other to ensure they aren't each doing something that will hinder the other's work, or hurt you. And, as much as you don't want to hear it, real diagnosis & recovery takes TIME, it isn't overnight, it isn't immediate, and while there are some things that can be done to relieve some of the pressure, real diagnosis requires establishing patterns, examining all possible sources & aggravations, and reviewing any personal problems or mental deficiencies that could contribute or effect the situation. And if a person DOES have a minor or major imbalance (clinical depression, addiction, stroke victim, etc) then there are DIFFERENT protocols to be followed to provide them help!!!!

It's insane to see the amount of internet diagnosis that fly through email, Facebook, and chat rooms, & it's absolutely stunning how the professional protocol for providing people help that will be lasting & in their best interest goes out the window for the quick McService, fast food approach.

Sigh.