You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

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Re: You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

Postby Adelphia » Thu May 31, 2012 7:22 pm

I think it's great this thread has been stickied, I would love to hear more insight from Ash and Magnolia.

Regarding the debate Felicia raised, I stand by the points I made, that BA takes blood and sacrifice of an evil nature, with the caveat that BA entities can also appear as DA ones and do works for ulterior motives rather than overt pacts.

In the history of religion and cults, human sacrifice comes up quite frequently. The Druids, the Mayans, the ancient Pagans, deities all over the world have demanded blood from large groups of people. Privately, the same beings and types of beings can enter into one on one agreements with individuals and smaller groups as well. To paraphrase the bible... the devil roams about seeking who he can devour. 'The Devil' being a title of a type of entity, and not an individual. There are BA entities which seek to devour human souls.

I had a friend with an opened third eye who was quite devastated by witnessing this type of thing happen on the spiritual plane, where an innocent would die, and their soul would be devoured.

I do think that some people can be working in DA streams under a BA label because of misclassification and miscategorization - I think that happens a lot.

I work with DA entities, but if I so choose can do magick that is considered BA simply by the intent of the spell. Ie., magick of mind control and domination, or magick of revenge.


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Re: You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

Postby Falicea272 » Thu May 31, 2012 8:29 pm

adelphia wrote:I think it's great this thread has been stickied, I would love to hear more insight from Ash and Magnolia.

Regarding the debate Felicia raised, I stand by the points I made, that BA takes blood and sacrifice of an evil nature, with the caveat that BA entities can also appear as DA ones and do works for ulterior motives rather than overt pacts.

In the history of religion and cults, human sacrifice comes up quite frequently. The Druids, the Mayans, the ancient Pagans, deities all over the world have demanded blood from large groups of people. Privately, the same beings and types of beings can enter into one on one agreements with individuals and smaller groups as well. To paraphrase the bible... the devil roams about seeking who he can devour. 'The Devil' being a title of a type of entity, and not an individual. There are BA entities which seek to devour human souls.

I had a friend with an opened third eye who was quite devastated by witnessing this type of thing happen on the spiritual plane, where an innocent would die, and their soul would be devoured.

I do think that some people can be working in DA streams under a BA label because of misclassification and miscategorization - I think that happens a lot.

I work with DA entities, but if I so choose can do magick that is considered BA simply by the intent of the spell. Ie., magick of mind control and domination, or magick of revenge.


I will agree from personal experience that certain DA entites can be operating under the guise of BA and vice versa and that there is indeed a lot of miscategorization; it happened to me when an entity I thought was a Djinn ended up being in fact a Demon. Also I will agree that magick can change it's classification by the intent of the user, for example some Love Spells can be considered BA because the intent of the caster is to have that person fall in love with them and thus infringing on the person's free will. Also a lot of Money Spells can actually become BA when it is taken from another person with complete disregard as to how that person will react to the taking away of said money. Excellent points!!

However, as you mentioned, the Bible does describe the devil (which is indeed a title given by the Abrahamic religions to diminish the power of earlier divinities and thus making them adversarial to the agenda of the Church); Satan after all is not a name it is a title that means "Accuser" likewise Lucifer which is of Roman origin meaning "Light Bringer or Light Bearer" also Behemoth which means "Large and or gigantic in stature" but the Bible unfortunately is biased and cannot be taken too seriously as a reference for knowing what a demon really is or to otherwise forsee their behaviour. The first mention of demons come from the Germanic tribes of Western Europe and their demons, if indeed are the same entites we now know as such, were not always evil nor did they require blood sacrifices.

However, it has been already clarified by historians that the Mayans DID NOT use blood rituals in their religious ceremonies as offerings to their gods, (this once again was erroneously described by the Spanish Conquistadors who were under the auspice of the Church, again as an attempt to demonize the Mayans themselves as barbaric and in need of salvation) The only use of ritual blood used by the Mayans was when the Mayan King would draw blood from his tongue or genitals to promote rain during times of draught and femine, usualy by the use of a Stigray barb or throns tied on a cord. The Aztecs however did practice human sacrifice to apeace their Gods but they did not offer blood sacrifices to their lord of the Underworld and death by the name of Acolnahuacatl; blood was reserved for the Senior deities in their pantheon such as Huitzilopochtli. It was belived by the Aztecs that this god required human sacrifices but ONLYfrom those taken prisoner in battle and not from the priesthood or civilians of the Aztec Empire. Their gods were not demons.

As for the Druids, their blood sacrifices were offered to their gods and NOT to their demons since they did not have any in their pantheons; even their god of death was reveared and welcomed but never feared or propitiated with blood rituals. Also, their use of blood in rituals was reserved for times of severe strife like when the Romans conquered Gaul under the leadership of Cesar and only those of royal blood were offered. Those blood rituals were again reported by the Roamn Empire under the direction of the Church.

The first apperance of blood pact with the devil appeared as: The predecessor of Faustus in Christian mythology is Theophilus ("Friend of God" or "Beloved of god") the unhappy and despairing cleric, disappointed in his worldly career by his bishop, who sells his soul to the Devil but is redeemed by the Virgin Mary.[1] His story appears in a Greek version of the sixth century written by a "Eutychianus" who claims to have been a member of the household in question.

A ninth-century Miraculum Sancte Marie de Theophilo penitente inserts a Jew as intermediary with diabolus, his "patron", providing the prototype of a closely linked series in the Latin literature of the West.[2]

In the tenth century, the poet nun Hroswitha of Gandersheim adapted the text of Paulus Diaconus for a narrative poem that elaborates Theophilus' essential goodness and internalizes the forces of Good and Evil, in which the Jew is magus, a necromancer. As in her model, Theophilus receives back his contract from the Virgin, displays it to the congregation, and soon dies.

A long poem on the subject by Gautier de Coincy (1177/8–1236), entitled Comment Theophilus vint a pénitence provided material for a thirteenth-century play by Rutebeuf, Le Miracle de Théophile, where Theophilus is the central pivot in a frieze of five characters, the Virgin and the Bishop flanking him on the side of Good, the Jew and the Devil on the side of Evil.

So the whole idea of a pact with the devil has no previous precedent before the dates above and therefore only appear during the zenith of the Church's power and influence in Medieval Europa and not earlier.



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Re: You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

Postby Adelphia » Thu May 31, 2012 9:20 pm

Great historical research! Thank you.

I have to disagree about my ancestors the Druids and human sacrifice, and the practice of human sacrifice in general. It is said that the evidence is two sided so I am not sure that this would be proven one way or another.

eg:

At Danebury and elsewhere in Britain there are numerous burials that follow a pattern similar to that of the bodies deposited into water. With surprising frequency, in some places more than once per decade, men and women were buried with their limbs bound, sometimes weighed down and sometimes smashed to pieces.

One particularly gruesome grave contained a man and a woman buried alive together, staked down through their limbs. A foetus between the woman’s legs suggests that she miscarried as she died. Similar live burials are found in both Ireland and Northern Europe, which could again indicate a commonly understood ritual practice.


http://suite101.com/article/did-the-anc ... ce-a172871

My direct ancestors are some of the patriarchs who were at the center of the Old Testament so writing off the 'Abrahamic' religion as a whole would be writing off my ancestors, which I am not prone to do. With discrimination, one can learn a lot from sources which have errors and propaganda, such as the vast amount of info one can glean from medieval grimoires.

King Solomon had dealings with many of the beings - Demon Kings - who I am currently working with, including King Asmoday. King Asmoday is a good example (showing where we are in agreement), because although classified as an evil being in later (medieval) grimoires, his depiction in older sources such as the Talmud shows him to be more of a Pan type figure than a BA being. It is yet another example of an ancient DA entity depicted at times throughout history as a BA Demon.

I am in no way saying that all pacts are evil and I agree with you about 'the devil', in a post in another thread, I wrote recently what I believe about the adversaries or the shining ones... viewtopic.php?f=34&t=34635&start=20

Regarding pacts, they are a long tradition in sorcery, and can be categorized as implicit or explicit, and we could further look at them as DA or BA pacts with DA or BA beings.

From Jake Stratton-Kent, The True Grimoire:

The idea of two forms of pact, tacit and apparent, originates with Gillandus in 1525 in which he is followed by Guazo in 1608. Both apply the terms to witches relations with the devil. The idea of a pact itself is extremely ancient. Circumcision among the Jews is the mark of a covenant or pact with Jehovah; agreements with gods other than him are attacked in Isaiah 28:15:

"We have a covenant with death, and with hell, we are at agreement."

The early depiction of the pact in Christian theology refers to pagan relationships with their gods, either in magic or religion. This is the core of the concept as it appears both in later theology and in the grimoires. In fact, written contracts with the gods were made by Egyptians of the late first millenium BC, offering, for example, permanent services in a temple in exchange for protection from ill fortune and malevolent spirits. The early Christian theologian, Origen, who lived in Egypt 185 to 254 AD speaks of the use of divination and charms as automatically involving pacts with demons, in which he is followed by St. Thomas Aquinas of the Middle Ages. St. Augustine also speaks of a false pact of deceitful friendship between men and demons, by which he means the gods and spirits of late paganism. It is certainly significant that among the foremost pagan cults competing with early Christianity was that of Mithras, whose very name means agreement or covenant, and who was among other things a god of friendship. Significantly, the words pact and conjure both involve a sworn agreement by two or more parties.


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Re: You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

Postby Falicea272 » Thu May 31, 2012 9:58 pm

adelphia wrote:Great historical research! Thank you.

I have to disagree about my ancestors the Druids and human sacrifice, and the practice of human sacrifice in general. It is said that the evidence is two sided so I am not sure that this would be proven one way or another.

eg:

At Danebury and elsewhere in Britain there are numerous burials that follow a pattern similar to that of the bodies deposited into water. With surprising frequency, in some places more than once per decade, men and women were buried with their limbs bound, sometimes weighed down and sometimes smashed to pieces.

One particularly gruesome grave contained a man and a woman buried alive together, staked down through their limbs. A foetus between the woman’s legs suggests that she miscarried as she died. Similar live burials are found in both Ireland and Northern Europe, which could again indicate a commonly understood ritual practice.


http://suite101.com/article/did-the-anc ... ce-a172871

My direct ancestors are some of the patriarchs who were at the center of the Old Testament so writing off the 'Abrahamic' religion as a whole would be writing off my ancestors, which I am not prone to do. With discrimination, one can learn a lot from sources which have errors and propaganda, such as the vast amount of info one can glean from medieval grimoires.

King Solomon had dealings with many of the beings - Demon Kings - who I am currently working with, including King Asmoday. King Asmoday is a good example (showing where we are in agreement), because although classified as an evil being in later (medieval) grimoires, his depiction in older sources such as the Talmud shows him to be more of a Pan type figure than a BA being. It is yet another example of an ancient DA entity depicted at times throughout history as a BA Demon.

I am in no way saying that all pacts are evil and I agree with you about 'the devil', in a post in another thread, I wrote recently what I believe about the adversaries or the shining ones... viewtopic.php?f=34&t=34635&start=20

Regarding pacts, they are a long tradition in sorcery, and can be categorized as implicit or explicit, and we could further look at them as DA or BA pacts with DA or BA beings.

From Jake Stratton-Kent, The True Grimoire:

The idea of two forms of pact, tacit and apparent, originates with Gillandus in 1525 in which he is followed by Guazo in 1608. Both apply the terms to witches relations with the devil. The idea of a pact itself is extremely ancient. Circumcision among the Jews is the mark of a covenant or pact with Jehovah; agreements with gods other than him are attacked in Isaiah 28:15:

"We have a covenant with death, and with hell, we are at agreement."

The early depiction of the pact in Christian theology refers to pagan relationships with their gods, either in magic or religion. This is the core of the concept as it appears both in later theology and in the grimoires. In fact, written contracts with the gods were made by Egyptians of the late first millenium BC, offering, for example, permanent services in a temple in exchange for protection from ill fortune and malevolent spirits. The early Christian theologian, Origen, who lived in Egypt 185 to 254 AD speaks of the use of divination and charms as automatically involving pacts with demons, in which he is followed by St. Thomas Aquinas of the Middle Ages. St. Augustine also speaks of a false pact of deceitful friendship between men and demons, by which he means the gods and spirits of late paganism. It is certainly significant that among the foremost pagan cults competing with early Christianity was that of Mithras, whose very name means agreement or covenant, and who was among other things a god of friendship. Significantly, the words pact and conjure both involve a sworn agreement by two or more parties.


Correct me if I'm wrong but I know that King Asmodeus appears in some Talmudic legends as the builder of Solomon's temple along with others of his hosts which would make him appear Pan-like before King Solomon who was under the protection of the Archangel Michael (Although some accounts state is was Gabriel and even Uriel) but in the Book of Tobit appears as a clearly BA entity as it appears following for comparison: In the Book of Tobit

The Asmodeus of the Book of Tobit is attracted to Sarah, Raguel's daughter, and is not willing to let any husband possess her (Tobit 6:13); hence he slays seven successive husbands on their wedding nights, impeding the sexual consummation of the marriages. When the young Tobias is about to marry her, Asmodeus proposes the same fate for him, but Tobias is enabled, through the counsels of his attendant angel Raphael, to render him innocuous. By placing a fish's heart and liver on red-hot cinders, Tobias produces a smoky vapor that causes the demon to flee to Egypt, where Raphael binds him (Tobit 8:2-3).

Asmodeus would thus seem to be a demon characterized by carnal desire; but he is also described as an evil spirit in general: 'Ασμοδαίος τὸ πονηρὸν δαιμόνιον or τõ δαιμόνιον πονηρόν, and πνεῦμα ἀκάθαρτον (Tobit 3:8; Tobit 3:17; Tobit 6:13; Tobit 8:3). It is possible, moreover, that the statement (Tobit 6:14), "Asmodeus loved Sarah," implies that he was attracted not by women in general, but by Sarah only.

[edit] In the Talmud

The figure of Ashmedai in the Talmud is less malign in character than the Asmodeus of Tobit. In the former, he appears repeatedly in the light of a good-natured and humorous fellow. But besides that, there is one feature in which he parallels Asmodeus, inasmuch as his desires turn upon Solomon's wives and Bath-sheba. But even here, Ashmedai seems more comparable to a Greek satyr rather than to an evil demon.

"Shadim" (plural of "shade") can fly because they have wings. It is also stated that they have chicken claws as opposed to toes.

Another Talmudic legend has King Solomon tricking Asmodai into collaborating in the construction of the Temple of Jerusalem. In yet another legend Asmodai threw king Solomon over 400 leagues away from the capital by putting one wing on the ground and the other stretched skyward. He then changed places for some years with King Solomon. When King Solomon returned they discovered him because Asmodai had kept the same routine even with the royal wives, but when they questioned his wives, it was found that for a the past while the king had never removed his slippers even at night. Asmodai then fled from Solomon's wrath.[6] it is stated that "60 of the bravest Warriors of Israel surround his bed, with double edged swords unsheathed in their hands, for fear of the night".[7] It is related that this fear was from Asmodai.

An aggadic narrative describes him as the king of all the shades (Pesachim 109b–112a). Another passage describes him as marrying Lilith, who became his queen.[8]

He has also been recorded as the off-spring of the union between Adam and the angel of prostitution, Naamah, conceived while Adam was married to Lilith.

Could it be that demons or at least some of the higher ranking ones can modify or otherwise behave differently and if so it would make them more human-like than we would like to admit? I mean, I know a lot of people who act one way with some people and completely different from others.We even have a word for it: "two-faced" which could also correlate with this demon always being described as having several faces. What do you think?

I agree that later Grimoires have a Christian taste and it has been theorized that this was done in order to safeguard the would-be conjurers from the Inquisition. No argument there.

I will agree that pacts with GODS were practiced by the ancient cultures of the world, my argument is with pacts and blood sacrifices with DEMONS specifically and solely. So I agree completely with you on those accounts.

Also don't think I'm dismissing everything in the Bible and in turn diminishing your ancestors; FAR from it is just that the accounts of demons as they appear in the Bible are too narrow a view to convince me otherwise, that's all. I mean if I was to fear something I would fear the Angels since most account on Angels are quite violent and less "angelic" for example the Angel who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah was under the command of God to do so, likewise the Angel that kills all first-born children during the Plague in Exodus, and the Angel who antagonized Job and Jacob. Just my view on these points only.

As a side note, being of Druid Ancestry, do you belong to any grove? OBOD perhaps?



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Re: You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

Postby Adelphia » Thu May 31, 2012 10:30 pm

You say:
Could it be that demons or at least some of the higher ranking ones can modify or otherwise behave differently and if so it would make them more human-like than we would like to admit? I mean, I know a lot of people who act one way with some people and completely different from others.We even have a word for it: "two-faced" which could also correlate with this demon always being described as having several faces. What do you think?


Absolutely! They can appear as evil and demonic based on their actions, as powerful beings of higher intelligence. I do believe they are very human like. I definitely think how they react will be based on how they are approached. King Solomon tricked King Asmoday, and was in return brutally tricked by him (King Asmoday took over King Solomon's identity and throne while King Solomon was left to wander). If I were King Asmoday, I would have have tried to get the best of King Solomon as well. And in general, people practicing a purely grimoiric approach in relation to King Asmoday and other entities will run the risk of a more dangerous interaction, because this is a magick that is often based on torture and abuse and threats and intimidation.

Yes, King Asmoday makes for some very interesting discussion and perhaps we can devote a thread to it entirely and continue on that note there, pasting most of your post above as a starting point.

Regarding pacts with demons vs. pacts with gods and God and other entities...

There are lots of other good examples of pacts with specific entities. Many of them are not technically described as a devil or as a demon. Meeting the black man at the crossroads in hoodoo to gain some kind of desired skill. And here is a Celtic example, which actually involves an Island where some of my ancestors and chieftains of my family were buried, the Isle of Iona:

The legend of Saint Columba is also based upon an ancient Celtic motif. The saintly missionary wanted to build a church on the island of Iona but everything he built during the day collapsed by night. One day Saint Columba saw a "biast" on the shore. This was a being, half woman and half fish, which, when it came ashore and shook its scales, caused the entire island of Iona to tremble. It gave out a sound at the same time, which was like the clinking of pottery-pieces. The monk then asked the extraordinary being if she caused the crumbling of the church-walls. The "biast" of course answered yes but, at the same time, she taught Columba what he should do. The antidote was very simple. It was known from the Great Wall of China to the Castle of Déva in the Carpathian Basin and the full length and breadth of the Scythian lands: he had to ask the builders the next day, who was willing to volunteer to be walled in alive.[66]

http://www.magyar-megmaradas.eoldal.hu/ ... rs--3.html

Human sacrifice is not something exclusive to a being who is classified as a demon.
Last edited by Adelphia on Thu May 31, 2012 10:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

Postby souloffire » Thu May 31, 2012 10:32 pm

FAlicea*Fascinating information & an interesting read. :thumbup:



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Re: You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

Postby NyctophiliaRaven » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:10 am

I found this discussion deeply fascinating and educational. However... I note that the main example of a "demon" who is DA in action was Asmodeus.

However, it seems that both of you are neglecting to point out the fact that Asmodeus began as a Babylonian and/or Persian GOD... and yes, definitely a Pan-like Entity.

I find it difficult to ascribe to the lusty but scholarly mathematician and philosopher any kind of black arts intent.

Perhaps I am... misguided... but I've found the extremely rare meet with him to be... most illuminating. I rather think He appreciated being remembered as something OTHER than a "Demon Lord/King."

It makes me wonder... just who else began as one thing, and was perverted by mankind into filling a different shoe? El means God... does that not signify that every angEL with that in its name was once a part of a pantheon, long since vanished into the mists? Were they themselves once Gods, and then molded into their current positions of slavery to another pantheon BY US?

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Re: You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

Postby Euphotic » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:30 am

Selqetkitty wrote:It makes me wonder... just who else began as one thing, and was perverted by mankind into filling a different shoe? El means God... does that not signify that every angEL with that in its name was once a part of a pantheon, long since vanished into the mists? Were they themselves once Gods, and then molded into their current positions of slavery to another pantheon BY US?

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I've always thought -el just meant it had something to do with God, such as Uriel - Fire/Light of God. Not necessarily meaning the subject is god himself, but having some god-like attribute such as light, strength, beauty etc. I actually feel the names might imply that God is these things. "God is light", "God is beauty" etc. I'm not a linguistic though so I can't prove this. I think it's nice that the English word angel has that -el ending too even if it's just a coincidence. (Malakh, angelos, angelus etc. of course don't have it.)


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Re: You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

Postby Falicea272 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:46 pm

Riira wrote:
Selqetkitty wrote:It makes me wonder... just who else began as one thing, and was perverted by mankind into filling a different shoe? El means God... does that not signify that every angEL with that in its name was once a part of a pantheon, long since vanished into the mists? Were they themselves once Gods, and then molded into their current positions of slavery to another pantheon BY US?

Brightest blessings...
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I've always thought -el just meant it had something to do with God, such as Uriel - Fire/Light of God. Not necessarily meaning the subject is god himself, but having some god-like attribute such as light, strength, beauty etc. I actually feel the names might imply that God is these things. "God is light", "God is beauty" etc. I'm not a linguistic though so I can't prove this. I think it's nice that the English word angel has that -el ending too even if it's just a coincidence. (Malakh, angelos, angelus etc. of course don't have it.)


EL is a contraction for the word "Lord or God" therefore Angels are named after an attribute of God which they represent, for example, Raphael means "God Heals" and Gabriel means "Strength of God" Michael means "He who is like God" and so on.



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Re: You've got it wrong unless you've got it right

Postby Euphotic » Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:19 pm

Falicea272 wrote:
Riira wrote:
Selqetkitty wrote:It makes me wonder... just who else began as one thing, and was perverted by mankind into filling a different shoe? El means God... does that not signify that every angEL with that in its name was once a part of a pantheon, long since vanished into the mists? Were they themselves once Gods, and then molded into their current positions of slavery to another pantheon BY US?

Brightest blessings...
Selqet


I've always thought -el just meant it had something to do with God, such as Uriel - Fire/Light of God. Not necessarily meaning the subject is god himself, but having some god-like attribute such as light, strength, beauty etc. I actually feel the names might imply that God is these things. "God is light", "God is beauty" etc. I'm not a linguistic though so I can't prove this. I think it's nice that the English word angel has that -el ending too even if it's just a coincidence. (Malakh, angelos, angelus etc. of course don't have it.)


EL is a contraction for the word "Lord or God" therefore Angels are named after an attribute of God which they represent, for example, Raphael means "God Heals" and Gabriel means "Strength of God" Michael means "He who is like God" and so on.


Thanks for explaining! I was also thinking maybe it can mean both "of God" and "God is". I think there isn't a word for "is" in Hebrew so maybe there could be some room for interpretation. :think: I could remember wrong though and maybe someone else can answer this more correctly. (I took some courses in Hebrew years ago, but I was horrible at it and have forgotten almost everything.)

…Ok, bare with me. My inner language nerd got awoken and I dug out my Hebrew book. ;) I found one example, but this is about adjectives. I translated this into English so it can sound clumsy (but the book is very hard to understand in Finnish too):

"...In theory without the article it can be interpreted two ways. For example Suus toov (my note: I don't know how to put Hebrew characters here) "good horse" or "horse is good". In practice it however usually means the attribute."

El obviously isn't really an adjective so I'm not sure if it works like that.

I also found examples like: Daavid melekh - Daavid is king (literally it's just words for "Daavid" and "king"). So I thought if there was words like "Beauty…God", even if it's a name, maybe it could also be translated "Beauty is God" or "God is Beauty". Along with the translation "...of God".

But I try to shut up about this now, I guess I was going :ot: a little. (I also never though I'd voluntarily touch that Hebrew book again. :lol: )


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Love leading the pilgrim


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