The Elephant In The Room

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NyctophiliaRaven
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I think something should be said here, about all these posts on the noob conjurers. This is the elephant in the room, and I think we should probably talk about it before any more crockery gets broken, yes?

WE ARE NOT THE CONJURING POLICE.

Conjuring is out of the bag. It's the next big thing. Not only do plenty of people think it's their next step in magickal evolution, but they also recognize that sellers entrenched in the market are making quite good money at a time when a lot of people are struggling. They don't recognize the reasons those sellers are entrenched, but they do recognize the benefits. It's stupid to ignore this particular elephant in the room - honestly the better reaction would be that you may as well teach it to juggle. At least with a frank discussion about the more technical aspects of conjuring, they'd have an ethical teacher who took time to make sure they knew those extra bits - such as, how good is your astral travel, your aim? Are you sure you've got the right realm? Are you sure that what you are conjuring is what it says it is? How do you know? Do you know the energy signature of the realm and the species? How often have you conjured them before? Can you see them clearly, feel them clearly, communicate with them clearly? Honestly, the fact that the actual process, not the fine-tuning, mind you, but the actual process itself, is so easy is a pretty big freaking elephant, and everyone's solution right now is to stick their heads in the sand and tell the noobs, "You're all wrong for learning on the internet!" That's never going to work... the more you tell people NOT to do something.... the more you guarantee they WILL do it.

I conjured my first entities when I was SEVEN. Admittedly the first three, who all came at once, were pretty terrifying to me, and my dad had to rescue me, send them back, and close the portal I'd made in my closet... but I was still seven, and it was still successful. I had conjured my first Monster Under the Bed by the time I was 8. Conjuring is EASY. Binding is a little tricky - you have to know how to open up a vessel and make it absorb the entity's energies - and there's contractual negotiations and you have to be able to make sure the entities or spirits are telling the truth about themselves and their desires... but those, too, are simple. If they don't write it, you can't trust it. I always explain the contract, and specifically say to anything I conjure: "What race of entity are you?; do you wish to be conjured, and bound to work with humans?; do you agree to the contract stipulations we are discussing?; please write your name." If they write no on the mirror to any of that... we're done. Contracts should be simple - Do not ever harm the keeper, or harm anyone on their behalf or at their behest unless their life, their body, or their essential self is on the line. Do not kill. Agree to follow the keeper's house rules. That's not difficult.

Of course, there's the energetic requirements - if you're truly conjuring and not just fooling yourself with crazy pipe-dreams, you better make sure you know how to manage your power - no point in bringing something through if you can't seal the deal because you ran out of energy and your actual binding is crap because of it. You also better know how to seal a binding to protect it. You need to know how to create charging energies. You need to know a few other aspects of magick, such as how to cast a truth spell or something similar onto glass, how to cast a circle, how to call in extra power if you need it, how to open and close portals safely - but honestly if you've had a decent 101 class, or even just a decent book on, for gods' sakes, WICCA, you already know all that - even Ravenfluff can teach you how to ground, center, sense energy, direct it, and cast a freaking circle.

So you see, it's not the actual conjuring and binding process that people need to worry about. That part is a cake walk. It really just takes refinement. It's the identification of location and species that's the sticking point. Don't tell me it's a demon when I know for a fact it keeps drinking my blood and stealing my energy. Don't tell me it's a demon when I know for a fact that you're claiming to conjure from a Celtic underworld that's traditionally associated with dead faeries. Don't tell me it's an entity when I can see the weave and I know it's a servitor. Don't tell me it's an entity if it's a spirit - and if you're going to conjure you better damned well know the difference between the two. Don't tell me you're conjuring anything unless you can guarantee that you know the realm and what lives in it, and you can prove to me that you know what you're conjuring is what you say it is... I'm sure you've probably conjured SOMETHING - there's a lot out there that's bored and looking for a good time, and will come when you call just because they're having a random moment and happened to like the sound of your energy. Also, how do you know the ONLY thing you're conjuring is what you say you're wanting to conjure - that there are no surprise friends coming along for the ride? How have you protected your mirror and your portal? Do you have and use an astral temple with an astral mirror or a fetch, as well as a physical circle and a physical mirror, with which to contact those species and work with them towards creating a contract that is acceptable? How did you BIND your conjure - the specific process you used? Is it really bound, or is it just an attachment? Do you REALLY know the difference? Attachments are not bound to a contract and you should remember that. Speaking of that contract, what IS your contract? THESE are the important questions. Not, "can you conjure?" Anyone can conjure.

The thing is, it IS that easy to find a realm if you know how to travel the astral. It's that easy to, having done so, find a being, chat for a few, agree to some standards, open your mirror, put a vessel in front of it, have them write their answers, and then pull them through the mirror and suck them into the vessel... seriously, and again, I know from personal experience that a 7 year old with the right knowledge can conjure. A seven year old with the right knowledge can bind. It's definitely better that you be able to actually see and communicate with what you're conjuring, but beyond that... the mechanics for the magick is absurdly simple, and yet all these posts about new conjurers act like it's some kind of technical marvel - it's ridiculous. What conjurers do isn't particularly special... and I can point to over 2000 places online alone where people could learn to do the mechanics of it for free.

Of course, you can't teach astral travel and proper sight to people... that DOES take time... but if they've already, really and truly, got that down, and they know how to cast a circle, who are we to tell them not to do it? My whole life has been based around the acceptance of the simple fact that magick is inborn, it's reflex - and you can find easy instructions on how to do just about anything magickal that you could think of, and quite a bit you have yet to conceive of, with the stroke of a few keys on Google. So why keep secrets in that world? It's far better for someone who knows their stuff to be telling people the truth about magick... that it's NOT something they have to work at, that it IS in their blood and bones, and that the only reason it's hard for anyone to do is because they expect it to be. It's harder to move your arm when you really, really think "Move, Arm," than it is to just let go and move it, you know? Almost every post I write about magick talks about that... that people are already seeing, sensing... they just need to realize that they are... and they need to drop expectations because it's not going to be exactly the way they expect it to be. Communication isn't necessarily going to have anything to do with your ears, or even words... stuff like that. The less defined you are about things, the more successful you'll be... I say that over and over... but the people who know ignore it, because they know... and the people who don't know, ignore it because they don't understand what I'm saying at all. This is no different.

If you want to learn conjuring, fine. If you want to sell, fine. If you suck at it, eventually it will fall apart and not be a problem. You'll get a bad reputation and it'll be done. If you get hurt, you get to pay someone more skilled for the cleanup, but that's your CHOICE. I agree with the concerns about all the new conjurers... but at the same time... I disagree strongly with the way it's being handled. Ultimately, conjurers need to adapt to the fact that conjuring is actually easy when you break it down into bits... and that because it is, people who are deaf, dumb and blind are going to try it out... but eventually, because they're deaf, dumb, and blind, they'll either not successfully conjure and they'll stop getting buyers, they'll conjure the wrong thing and it will be safe or unsafe - but either way buyers won't trust them anymore, and maybe a more adept person will get to make some extra money cleaning up the mess... or they'll turn out to be good at it, and not so deaf, dumb, and blind as everyone assumed. That's not a problem - that's called trial by fire. Evolution. The atrition rate of new conjurers will even things out over the long run... and the mistakes they make with their buyers will ultimately bring in more work for the people who do actually know what they're doing, which has the added bonus of getting an even better reputation and being paid for it.

The elephant in the room is not CAN people conjure, or even SHOULD they... the elephant, my dears, is that they ARE... and all we're all doing is saying, "Oh, noes! So bad!" That really isn't working for anyone - by not supporting them in their education, and merely griping about how dangerous it is, we are actually encouraging them to be irresponsible - and we are to blame when someone gets hurt, because we said nothing other than, "That person isn't ready to conjure." We did nothing about it but wail - which actually has the effect of making us look like we want to keep the buyers all to ourselves and we're greedy with both knowledge, power, and money - and we look that way to the buyers and the new sellers. That makes everyone more reactive and more stubborn - the new practitioners become more adamant that they can do this type of work, and the buyers feel like they have to choose sides - essentially this behavior encourages everyone to give up their RESPONSIBLE support networks. Perhaps, instead of offering censorial and dolorous comments about the fate of the buyers and seller... we should also be selling classes so that we can make them, and our buyers, safer.

Just my 2cents


"She’s all the unsung heroes who... never quit." ― R. A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land
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Splendid,Nycto. :applause: :thumbup:

I hope to see these classes offered in the future. It would be beneficial because I do know of one conjurer/seller who was new and really got the side eye starting out because everyone thought this person wasn't ready when in fact this one person is the most remarkable conjurer I have had the pleasure to business with to date (aside from CH,of course). :inlove: This person has quite a following now and I am a forever client.

As you stated,their work and time will establish the truth. ;)


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Your Friendly Neighborhood Weirdo Syri,aka "The Crazy Cat Lady" :mrgreen: Friend of all things dark

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While I respect your carefully detailed view, I don't feel this is an elephant in the room. I don't really think people are saying this about conjuring, at least I haven't been in my criticisms. I've been trying to provoke the exact considerations that you posed here.

If people are getting that idea, then you're right.. it's the wrong point to focus on. However I think it should be emphasized that even things that are easier to do, can be done at a base level or at a more advanced/experienced level. Conjuring up a spirit is easy, but as you have even indicated.. the specifics take work, so conjuring any spirit is not easy. And pulling spirits forth can take less or more energy, a more effective or less effective technique, as well. Binding then takes earned respect of the realms you work in, considerably tested methodology, and the prior noted experience..
But that's just one part of a several-part effort of people knowing their stuff.
And on top of that, certainly, anyone can lie..anyone can misperceive their own power, be deluded.. etc.

Honestly I've decided it's kind of hopeless no matter which way you put it, to make practitioners consider their capability dynamically when there are those benefits you allude to in taking a piece of the meta market - and simply when they may hold a different system of belief altogether regarding magick, may be stubborn, or ignorant to certain knowledge that would reveal actual level of expertise in a practice. I'm pretty cynical about it.

But the biggest issue, really, is getting keepers.. the majority of the community.. to take this under deep consideration before making their purchases. I don't feel the lot are inclined to, or ever will be. It just keeps growing and growing and growing.. and so there will always be a problem. There will always be good and bad. As with most things.


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Noc, I wholeheartedly agree... were people focusing on the specifics that are needed, this wouldn't be the elephant it is... but they're not, despite all your attempts, and many others.

The sellers are focusing on the idea that there are so many new conjurers, without explaining much about why it's a problem... and no one is telling buyers the things they need to know so they can ask ANY sellers the right questions - though you're correct that even if they were educated, they wouldn't ask. THAT is an issue of the consumerism mind.

Buyers don't ask questions. They're programmed not to in every aspect of their lives... they're programmed to trust blindly and keep consuming. They see their doctors and take their pills, never mind that the pills might not actually help - a doctor told them to take it, that it was safe and would fix the issue. In the store, they don't check the side of the box. They don't look for the made-in-wherever label. They look at whether they like the look of something, whether it suits their needs, or not. From T-shirts and cereal to black magick spells and random spirits and entities on the internet, buyers are taught not to question the quality of a product, but instead the appearance. Forget about what grades your doctor made or what school s/he went to... the sign says doctor and they're accepting new patients. Onward!

Remember that thread where someone was complaining about a vessel because they didn't like the way it looked? It had nothing to do with the quality of the binding, and everything to do with the eyes.

These new conjurers are having the same consumer-driven mindset issues. They see the benefits, and don't understand the specifics needed to create a quality product.

Perhaps you're right and it's hopeless. I've been cynical for awhile now...

But I'm thinking I should change my tune. If all I'm doing is worrying about it, and not actually doing anything other than that, then I'm part of the problem.

Educating new sellers and all buyers about conjuration is important. If they're not educated, it's not their fault, really, when the stuffing hits the fan.

I do recognize that most of them aren't actually going to listen, or even understand. Conjurers don't talk shop with buyers, because buyers usually don't have the training and experience to understand most of the language and references. But maybe if someone actually took the time to try and TEACH them those references, SOMEONE would walk away from it better equipped to actually stand up and ask those questions.... if you do not actually know what questions to ask... you shut up and take your pills and hope they make your life better.

That's the biggest part of the problem. Most buyers come to this lifestyle with the idea that conjurers and magickal practitioners are selling HOPE.

Personally, I think I sell hard work and blunt advice... and I think if you want to buy hope, you should go see a priest.


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Conjuring is EASY.
My heart quite literally sank.


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YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE POPPING UP AS SELLERS, THERE'S NO PATH AROUND THAT.

KEEPERS & COLLECTORS HAVE TO COME TO TERMS THEMSELVES. PERIOD. THEY HAVE TO DECIDE WHO THEY WANT TO DO BUSINESS WITH, & WHO NOT.


WISHES FOR YOUR DELIGHT,

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Drake wrote:
Conjuring is EASY.
My heart quite literally sank.
Driving a car is easy. Creating a masterpiece of art is easy. Singing opera is easy. All things are easy for the right person in the right conditions. Also, you can put half hearted effort into any of those things and still accomplish the act, but with subpar results.

To me it's simple. As a keeper, a customer and an enthusiast, do I really want to play into parlor tricks or do I want to put in MY effort to find out what is really going on. Sellers are sellers. They will sell you the oceanfront property in Tenessee if you are dumb enough to buy it. So, do your homework and work on your abilities because this is the fun part, not holding trinkets with pretend descriptions :) It's really an amazing experience and unique to you.


Actually, as it turns out, it is easy being green.
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SoRealNebula wrote:
Drake wrote:
Conjuring is EASY.
My heart quite literally sank.
Driving a car is easy. Creating a masterpiece of art is easy. Singing opera is easy. All things are easy for the right person in the right conditions. Also, you can put half hearted effort into any of those things and still accomplish the act, but with subpar results.
I think SoRealNebula said it well here..


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MagickFromtheMysts wrote: Remember that thread where someone was complaining about a vessel because they didn't like the way it looked? It had nothing to do with the quality of the binding, and everything to do with the eyes.
Hmm.. this is a bit off topic, but.. don't you think it's a little mean, to talk about a fellow member so openly, where they can come and read this, knowing you are speaking about them?

Don't get me wrong... I understand the point you are trying to make.. but.. it just seems unnecessary to mention the individual this way.


- Bun / Bunni

~Cthulhu fhtagn~

~"All Paths are Riddled Absurdities... Explore them with Great Objectivity."
~"No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." A. Einstein
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SoRealNebula wrote:So, do your homework and work on your abilities because this is the fun part, not holding trinkets with pretend descriptions It's really an amazing experience and unique to you.
Yes, I absolutely agree - and that's the ultimate point of my message. That buyers need to do their homework... and that new conjurers need to do so, also. Just because the mechanics of a process is easy, doesn't mean that you have real skill at it.

Anyone can have sex... it takes more than a few years for most people to learn how to do it well. Conjuring is the same way - anyone with the travel skills and the energy can slap up a mirror, wander into someone, and pull them through... but all the other details... those come with time and practice and careful attention. They come with work.

There are a lot of buyers becoming conjurers. Some of them, like me, have been conjuring for themselves or for family and friends for years, before making the decision to sell. Most of them, however, appear to have been wandering lost, asking "What's this 'sex' thing everyone keeps talking about?" If you take my meaning.
SoRealNebula wrote:Driving a car is easy. Creating a masterpiece of art is easy. Singing opera is easy. All things are easy for the right person in the right conditions. Also, you can put half hearted effort into any of those things and still accomplish the act, but with subpar results.
This, too, is true. And I'm quite sure that no one here wants to receive sub-par results... or none at all. :(
Bunnulu Cthabbit wrote:
MagickFromtheMysts wrote: Remember that thread where someone was complaining about a vessel because they didn't like the way it looked? It had nothing to do with the quality of the binding, and everything to do with the eyes.
Hmm.. this is a bit off topic, but.. don't you think it's a little mean, to talk about a fellow member so openly, where they can come and read this, knowing you are speaking about them?

Don't get me wrong... I understand the point you are trying to make.. but.. it just seems unnecessary to mention the individual this way.
I'm not talking at all about the member - they were misunderstood and they explained themselves well enough... but many others contributed to that thread who do feel that way. I wasn't being mean, or personal, and I don't even remember who the person was that wrote the thread that began the complaints. The issue with the consumer-driven mentality among both buyers and buyers who want to be sellers is at the core of those kinds of complaints... and the thread that you are thinking of, whoever started it, is not the only one that's ever existed here... nor will it be in the future.

It was not an attempt to call out a member at all, it was an attempt to shine a light on a glaringly huge issue within ALL markets, not just Meta - but one that is affecting Meta quite strongly.

There are a lot of buyers who don't buy because they feel a call... but because they like the vessel. I know this because I've been here long enough to see those particular buyers come and go. They rise and fall like wheat harvests. Sellers try to find vessels that the buyers will like as well as the entities/spirits will, just because if your vessel isn't shiny, unique, and in a lot of cases, slathered with buzzwords, collectors won't buy.

I work to find appropriate vessels for the comfort of my entities - and not for the buyer at all. It's why all my Cecaelia are conjured into something from the sea - either stone or shell, but always from the sea. My Naga like vessels that remind people of their eyes - so I am currently using cat's eye pendants. They're not impressive, but they feel familiar to the entity. This is also why all my Fu are conjured into shisa. That's the tradition, it's what they're most comfortable with. The Quetzals have yet to express a particular attraction to anything that I can provide, so for now, they are going to spirit stones, but we've been talking about lightning glass recently. My monsters go into vessels that children can't damage, and yet that can be hung in areas where children have issues in the dark - under the bed, in the closet... they chose convenience.

I also work to find appropriate charging energies for my entities - the Quetzals have charging energies for air, lightning, smoke and sunlight. The Fu have charging energies of protection and prosperity. The Naga have charging energies that suit their personal natures. The Cecaelia have oceanic cleansing and charging energies... which is why if you hold their vessels, sometimes you feel like you're rocking. The Monsters get charging energies of shadows and dust-bunnies - the shadows help to make them more resistant to light sensitivity, and the dust-bunnies help make them feel like they have a nest wherever they go.

I don't worry about whether you will like the vessel or not - you can always move the spells to a vessel that you prefer more if you like... I worry about their comfort, their security... and I worry about making the right match. I talk to both my entities and my buyers before I make a sale. I even try, usually, to make sure that they get to spend time together before I confirm the sale - that way, if the buyer has an issue or the entity does, no one's lost out.

It doesn't change the fact that most buyers don't think of these things... they simply think "Oo, pretty!" It's a reflex that's been driven into them since they were toddlers in front of the TV being shouted at about what they should want for Christmas.

So my point really had nothing to do with the person who started that thread and whose meaning was mistaken by everyone else who contributed to the thread... it was about the attitudes of a large portion of the people buying right now. That was just a demonstration from something that everyone could remember. I could dig up older threads about the same topic, but this one, everyone remembered already. There were a lot of people who agreed that they were not always satisfied with their vessels on that thread. Of course, there were also a lot of others saying that it's not about the vessel, it's about the binding, so I accept that generalizations are not always consistently true.


"She’s all the unsung heroes who... never quit." ― R. A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” ― William Shakespeare, Hamlet
“Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.”
― H.L. Mencken, Prejudices: First Series
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