I can agree with you there Noc. The vastness of energy is not so easily defined, or contemplated. My problem is the idea that WA can only do "good" while BA can only do "bad". That, in my opinion, is just not logical. I've had experienced with beings labeled WA (as they vibrate to the lighter spectrum of energy) that have attacked me before, and have beings who are just about, if not BA (as they vibrate on the deeper level of darkness) as allies and companions, with whom I've no problem with.

While I agree that there are beings known as BA which naturally feed of humans, and those with corrosive energy, I disagree that all beings on the BA spectrum are of this kind. There is also an issue with lumping all of the beings, regardless of individual races or origin into an umbrella of one definition solely dependent on the vibration in which their core essences are comprised. It's like taking one criminal or rapist and saying the whole human race is like this. Same with the WA label.

I also understand that not everyone is able to handle, or even be near BA type energy, so caution is definitely needed, as well as experience with respectfully working with these beings. I'm in the mind that alot of bad experiences are due to lack of respect of the beings involved, and their temperament might well be to destroy whoever caused them harm or disrespect, and would lash out at any and all. This I understand, and it could also very well be that the being has absolutely no respect for the one interacting with them, and so that could be another reason for things to go wrong.

These are my understandings and personal gnosis on the subject.

Kitsune wrote:I can agree with you there Noc. The vastness of energy is not so easily defined, or contemplated. My problem is the idea that WA can only do "good" while BA can only do "bad". That, in my opinion, is just not logical. I've had experienced with beings labeled WA (as they vibrate to the lighter spectrum of energy) that have attacked me before, and have beings who are just about, if not BA (as they vibrate on the deeper level of darkness) as allies and companions, with whom I've no problem with.

You mentioned a spectrum - doesn't that automatically make them DA? Does BA/WA have a spectrum? If they are purities, they cannot have a spectrum. If they do, what makes them BA/WA?

Cult wrote:

Kitsune wrote:I can agree with you there Noc. The vastness of energy is not so easily defined, or contemplated. My problem is the idea that WA can only do "good" while BA can only do "bad". That, in my opinion, is just not logical. I've had experienced with beings labeled WA (as they vibrate to the lighter spectrum of energy) that have attacked me before, and have beings who are just about, if not BA (as they vibrate on the deeper level of darkness) as allies and companions, with whom I've no problem with.

You mentioned a spectrum - doesn't that automatically make them DA? Does BA/WA have a spectrum? If they are purities, they cannot have a spectrum. If they do, what makes them BA/WA?

That's a very good point!
My personal belief from a non expert such as myself is that all classes must involve a spectrum of some kind.
Just as in our mundane human world the law in our societies classes murder as murder for example.
But as we know, there are horrific non-sensical murders of the innocent by the truly wicked and then there are "mercy killings" carried out with love and compassion to end the intense suffering of others.
This is also a spectrum is it not?
I have the view that if a being is classed as BA then it doesn't necessarily mean that it spends it's time 24/7 seeking my utter destruction of mind, body and soul....yes I am sure some will....but not all.....just as I don't believe a WA being will want to sing lullaby's to me every night to drift me off to sleep and hold my hand!....again....some may well wish to do that, but not all.
Are we getting into "....ism" territory here with these assumptions?

Another point is....who are we to class other beings as ABC etc?
Of course we must use our common sense in recognising beings that we should keep a very wide berth from....that is the correct use of our inate "discrimination"....to judge and to seperate.
There are some beings that a practitioner/conjuror would never give the benefit of the doubt to....that is also common sense/self preservation.....but in general terms, if "we have not walked a mile in their shoes" then what right do we have to label as sacrosanct that anything is 100% WA or BA?
I am talking more in academical terms here for if I was starting out as a conjuror I would not go anywhere near anything remotely classed as a BA as I know I would not be strong enough or wily enough to best it, so I wouldn't wantonly endanger myself.
Demons for example are generally perceived as BA from the view of the mundane population and even some of the meta population but we know here that that is far from the truth.

Personally speaking as a DA human being (currently ) I cannot quite grasp what it is to not have any choice in behaviour, whether it be WA or BA.
In purely biblical terms most of the angels "sent from God" are completely DA as they have caused interference in human affairs, punishment and destruction on a massive scale several times over.
WA angels ergo could take no part in that as they cannot take an action that causes injury to another being.
Maybe the true "reality".....and I don't like that word but it will have to do for now is that there is no WA & BA but only DA extending at either end of the spectrum to infinitesimal reaches but never quite getting there as in a solid particle trying to go past a light photon.

I understand all of your confusion. You must understand this: the WA/BA spectrum, and the definition of WA/BA, are not universal between practitioners.

This is why I often put quotation marks around "Black Arts" and "White Arts." You can be judging a being based on their intent (be it ill or of good will), on their energy, on their nature, etc. In this particular instance I am using the spectrum to describe energy, not to describe good/evil or anything like that. We already have the scale of "good" to "evil" - why would we need another one with the words swapped to "white arts" and "black arts"?

Here at CH, Ash stated he describes BA as entities who can not be controlled. This is his definition for this, but if you ask another practitioner you will most likely get an entirely different answer.

Also, angels bring "justice", no? To enforce this they bring harm to those deserving. So they are dark arts. Not white arts. This, again, is where CH can differ on their definition of WA/BA, and where I disagree on.


@Cult: I'm sorry but you're trying to dig too many holes and making little sense. BA, by nature, must put the needs of themselves above others - end of story. WA, must put the needs of others above their own - end of story. It's the natural balance of light and dark. Darkness consumes, while light destroys darkness. (This is true regardless of what people try to tell you their definition of the spectrum is...)

@Zamorakk, playing the DA here. Who gives any being the right to decide "justice", as isn't that itself just a punishment from a cultural standpoint for something in their belief is wrong? How do you define it if each individual culture and race have different views on what is acceptable? Are you going to "punish" someone for not adhering to your rules and laws if that is not their culture, excluding the instances where they are in your territory, and under your jurisdiction? Say for example (to use an extreme), a culture where canabalism is legal, and a way of life for those peoples/beings, and is part of the culture they live in. Is it still right for you to bring harm to them because their way of life doesn't agree with your's?

A few things to think about. I hope my point gets across, I'm not the best at wording today.

Also, that's not exactly what defines light and dark. Light is a spectrum of energy as is darkness. Neither are "bad" or "good". They just are.

Anteros, I like you.

Zamorak666 wrote:@Cult: I'm sorry but you're trying to dig too many holes and making little sense. BA, by nature, must put the needs of themselves above others - end of story. WA, must put the needs of others above their own - end of story. It's the natural balance of light and dark. Darkness consumes, while light destroys darkness. (This is true regardless of what people try to tell you their definition of the spectrum is...)

Don't worry if I seem hostile - I'm not. I just like to question everything. Why not elaborate on why you think this way?

Kitsune wrote:Also, that's not exactly what defines light and dark. Light is a spectrum of energy as is darkness. Neither are "bad" or "good". They just are.

I have to second what Kitsune is saying here. Light can blind, and thus inflict harm, while darkness can protect (say you're walking alone at night and some sketchy man is following you but loses you due to lack of light), thus do good. While this is a physical example, the physical mechanics of the world often extend onto other areas in life, including the non-physical (eg. opposites attract in both physics and social relationships, etc).

I've stated more than enough info and refuse to repeat myself. You can re-read through this thread and all of your questions will be answered and then some.

Also, if I may quote the mighty God Beelzebub: "Darkness is light turned inside out."

Personally I find it kind of funny how many people associate BA with evil. But what is evil? To me, evil is causing pain and suffering for the sake of causing pain and suffering. This is something that requires choice, it requires a complete understanding of the pain and misery the victim is experiencing, and choosing to inflict it anyway, and enjoying it. A being that cannot and does not have this choice and understanding, can't truly be labelled as evil in my opinion. Many of the beings we label as BA feed off our pain and negative emotions, to them it isn't personal, it's a matter of their own survival. Some of the beings we consider BA cause us pain & suffering simply because their very energy is toxic or otherwise harmful to us, again it's not personal, it's just the way they are. Much like if you were to swim into a group of box jellyfish, you will experience excruciating pain and possibly even die, but those jellyfish are entirely unaware of your suffering, they have no way of understanding or sympathizing with you, not because they are evil, but because they are what they are. There are also those beings that are labelled as BA because they see humans as not only inferior beings, but as vermin, and will attempt to harm humans when they come across them. They view and treat humans about the same way humans view and treat cockroaches & other "pests". In my opinion, these beings don't deserve to be labelled evil any more than humans do. For this reason, I feel DA beings have more capacity for what I personally would call "evil" than the majority of BA beings do. However, this is merely my own opinion, based on how I personally define these terms.