kenxu wrote:The only reason why entities / spirits agree to be bound here on Earth is because they greatly admire (or some are greatly jealous of) humans and our way of life, and want to experience our lives. On Earth, none is greater than humans - not gods, not demons, etc. If any of them were greater, humans would not rule the Earth.

What proof do you have that they are jealous? We have so much suffering in this plane, there's not much to be jealous of! So jealous of our divorce rate, murder, war, physical pain, sickness, turning into an ugly raisin before we die. Yeah, I don't buy they admire us or want to be us. If they wanted to experience our lives they can just walk into us and possess us, and see the pain and irritation we experience on the daily, as well as the emotional traumas many can't get over.

As an astral traveler, ummm...way cooler to be a spirit. You have power to mold reality, and escape it. You are not limited by physical form or the laws of physics. Sure you have no one to talk to, and could get bore after thousands of years, but that's the case of the grass is greener on the other side. In spirit form you are much more powerful in effecting this reality. If you think food, work money makes us the better, smarter, or more powerful, what we don't have is freedom, therefore our power and everything in out lives are limited.

What makes you believe we are greater?

darkwing wrote:

Samsara wrote: So many LPH folks have been knocked off their thrones, and yet have learned zero humility...

Mm other LHP practitioners may disagree this, but I think humility and modesty can be empowering, or at least useful for personal empowerment )

I think that either path can have people who have zero humility. Take a look at what some (Some! Definitely not all) religious leaders are spewing out of their mouths these days. I've seen some seriously hateful and judgmental dreck being uttered by some of the people who think they're holy and followers of God. I don't know what God THEY think they're following, but the one I revere has told His followers flat-out "Judge not, lest you yourself be judged by the same measure." So in other words, if you pick at every little flaw that other people have, and declare that those horrible, sinful others are all going to hell for their flaws (unlike oh-so-holy you), when it's YOUR time before the proverbial Pearly Gates, YOUR every little flaw is going to get picked at.

I skew pretty heavily toward RHP, but that doesn't mean I ascribe to the "You'd better think JUST LIKE ME or you're going to Hell" attitude that some folks out there have.

Samsara wrote:Sure you have no one to talk to, and could get bore after thousands of years, but that's the case of the grass is greener on the other side. In spirit form you are much more powerful in effecting this reality. If you think food, work money makes us the better, smarter, or more powerful, what we don't have is freedom, therefore our power and everything in out lives are limited.

What makes you believe we are greater?

You should watch Hellsing. Imho Alucard says it best.
"To become a monster like me, is to admit you were too weak to remain a human."
People go on even if they're weak, mortal, have no powers, etc. That's a power of it's own. And a strength.

Sure you can go astral, you can shape your worlds and everything.
But what does it matter if everything just goes according to your will there, if you can create and destroy everything? Where's the challenge? The growth?

What does freedom mean if there's no limits to overcome? You have as much freedom as you want in your life. You could just walk out into the wild somewhere you can't be found, hunt your own food, grow your own plants. You'd just have to give up all those nice amenities and risk your health and maybe your life. And nobody wants that, do they?

Do you ever count your blessings?

Divorce could be a good thing, you have not been murdered, there is no war in your country, the number of days you are in sickness and pain is normally very few compare to those that you are healthy, etc. The things you mention do exist, but are very minor compared to the good things that most humans enjoy, and most non-humans want to enjoy too.

But, yes, even those minor things you mentioned, non-humans want to experience those things too. And yes, they are very jealous of our good lives. And no spirit can just "walk into us and possess us" unless we allow them to. There are very few humans who cannot resist spirit possession. How many people do you know who are possessed?

I'm talking On Earth. Humans are the power here.

Astral travel? Why bother? We can do that after we pass on. Live life on Earth while you still can. Our years on Earth are very limited, and those who are turning into "ugly raisins" do still cling on to Earthly life, as far as I can see. Would you commit suicide as soon as you think you are turning into an "ugly raisin"?

On Earth, we are Far Greater than any other entity / spirit.

Samsara wrote:

kenxu wrote:The only reason why entities / spirits agree to be bound here on Earth is because they greatly admire (or some are greatly jealous of) humans and our way of life, and want to experience our lives. On Earth, none is greater than humans - not gods, not demons, etc. If any of them were greater, humans would not rule the Earth.

What proof do you have that they are jealous? We have so much suffering in this plane, there's not much to be jealous of! So jealous of our divorce rate, murder, war, physical pain, sickness, turning into an ugly raisin before we die. Yeah, I don't buy they admire us or want to be us. If they wanted to experience our lives they can just walk into us and possess us, and see the pain and irritation we experience on the daily, as well as the emotional traumas many can't get over.

As an astral traveler, ummm...way cooler to be a spirit. You have power to mold reality, and escape it. You are not limited by physical form or the laws of physics. Sure you have no one to talk to, and could get bore after thousands of years, but that's the case of the grass is greener on the other side. In spirit form you are much more powerful in effecting this reality. If you think food, work money makes us the better, smarter, or more powerful, what we don't have is freedom, therefore our power and everything in out lives are limited.

What makes you believe we are greater?

kenxu wrote:Do you ever count your blessings?

Divorce could be a good thing, you have not been murdered, there is no war in your country, the number of days you are in sickness and pain is normally very few compare to those that you are healthy, etc. The things you mention do exist, but are very minor compared to the good things that most humans enjoy, and most non-humans want to enjoy too.

But, yes, even those minor things you mentioned, non-humans want to experience those things too. And yes, they are very jealous of our good lives. And no spirit can just "walk into us and possess us" unless we allow them to. There are very few humans who cannot resist spirit possession. How many people do you know who are possessed?

I'm talking On Earth. Humans are the power here.

Astral travel? Why bother? We can do that after we pass on. Live life on Earth while you still can. Our years on Earth are very limited, and those who are turning into "ugly raisins" do still cling on to Earthly life, as far as I can see. Would you commit suicide as soon as you think you are turning into an "ugly raisin"?

On Earth, we are Far Greater than any other entity / spirit.

It's quite an assumption to think I don't count my blessings when I point out being human is not the most powerful being. Making a statement like "yes they are very jealous" is still not proof. We are the ones that ask for their help. When was the last time you helped a spirit? You can't because you have no power to help them. So since they hold the power to help us whenever we ask and we don't have any to help them, tell me why they are jealous again?

The statement they can't just walk in, has been argued many time. If you've ever acted irrational only to find out later you've avoided a trip that was on the radar for a nuclear attack, and a three day flood, perhaps possession is not such a bad thing, and it happens more than we'd like to admit.

Yes, with all my material accomplishments, when I turn into an ugly raising, I won't fight the grim reaper. Suicide is extreme, and messy, because if I fail, I could be uglier!

And apparently you haven't astral travel so you have no idea what you are missing. Astral lovers are way better than human lovers, because they don't have a body and so your souls truly intertwine. If you believe in the power of love, I'm pretty certain you're not going to find that level of love on this plane. This is why unfortunately it is the ultimate lure for less honorable spirits to convince you to enter the dark side.

Sure you can go astral, you can shape your worlds and everything.
But what does it matter if everything just goes according to your will there, if you can create and destroy everything? Where's the challenge? The growth?

Astral travel I think is the reward from all your suffering. It's part of spiritual growth. It's like saying what's the point of getting a gold metal when being loser and still fall on my face is so much more rewarding. Interesting points, but backwards logic in my world. No you don't create and destroy things on the whim, but you do participate in shaping reality. And my point was, because I can, it does not make me more powerful than any living person or entity. So if you are not more powerful than any other person or entity, how can we say we are more powerful than the Gods or demons we ask favors from?

Samsara wrote: Astral travel I think is the reward from all your suffering.

Astral travel is a skill that everyone has, remembering that astral travelling is the problem. It's more a birthright than a reward for suffering.
No matter if you're Donald Trump or some hobo in the gutter, you can Astral travel. It's no reward for anything.

Samsara wrote: It's like saying what's the point of getting a gold metal when being loser and still fall on my face is so much more rewarding. Interesting points, but backwards logic in my world.

Nice straw man. I didn't say falling on your face is more rewarding than getting a gold medal and I wouldn't know how you come up with that comparison from what I wrote. Success against all odds and overcoming challenges is more rewarding than doing it because you can when you already know you can, that's what I meant, to make it more obvious.

If you just get rewarded by basically doing nothing challenging, that devalues the reward. And that might be a problem with today's world, where you get praised and rewarded for every little crap thing you do as a kid and that makes people grow up to just feel more and more entitled to get everything without doing anything.

Samsara wrote:So if you are not more powerful than any other person or entity, how can we say we are more powerful than the Gods or demons we ask favors from?

Depends on how you define power. Also who's to say you're not equally powerful? The power is there, we just don't know how to use it. Those beings, especially immortals don't just use their own power, it's the power of their worshipers and their faith boosting them up a notch or two or thousands. Not to mention the eons of experience and knowledge that as humans we kind of lack.

Now if you'd take one of those gods, put him into a human body, with all his knowledge and he couldn't do anything in the physical realm and you'd punch them in the face, who's the more powerful of you two?
Because even those gods sometimes incarnate in a human body, they do that for a reason,and they can't do more than any other human then.
Power is relative, well, everything is.

kenxu wrote:The only reason why entities / spirits agree to be bound here on Earth is because they greatly admire (or some are greatly jealous of) humans and our way of life, and want to experience our lives. On Earth, none is greater than humans - not gods, not demons, etc. If any of them were greater, humans would not rule the Earth.

That's why I'm a misanthrope. There're only a few humans I'm cool with, but this arrogance is...ew. Big ew.

(Tbh. I never experienced a spirit being jealous about something. I experienced angry, depressed and broken spirits, but a jealous one? No. Never in all 10 years.)

Astral travel is a skill that everyone has, remembering that astral travelling is the problem. It's more a birthright than a reward for suffering.
No matter if you're Donald Trump or some hobo in the gutter, you can Astral travel. It's no reward for anything.

That's not true, because i have to tried to pull someone out of their body and was electrocuted. Turns out this person has never astral projected, and is probably not allowed to. While he studies the occult on a superficial level, he has not reached a state of being able to release from his body.

While a second person who has astral projected I was able to pull them out of their body. They later told me it did happen and it hadn't happened in a while.

Between the two people I can observe one is not spiritually evolved while the other gets it.

If you just get rewarded by basically doing nothing challenging, that devalues the reward.

I agree with that. The fact that someone can now easily accomplish things easily sometimes is because they've already struggled and have learned to be more efficient with how they approach the world. But see from your statements, I feel, you just want to make a blanket statement to fit your generalize view without considering, many of us who are curious of the occult have our own personal issue we are trying to work though. And it is in the metaphysical can we cope or find answers in the physical.

Now if you'd take one of those gods, put him into a human body, with all his knowledge and he couldn't do anything in the physical realm and you'd punch them in the face, who's the more powerful of you two?

Considering their are many spiritual practices that gives humans super natural strength, so a car can run over them and not die, through the help of gods/spirits/etc. I would say if a God were in any human body he could knock us all the FO.

I mean it was because I asked for strength could my skinny legged 5'3 frame was able to leg press
420 lbs. So yeah, Gods have no limits that I know of. My limit is at 420lbs. What's yours?

Samsara wrote: That's not true, because i have to tried to pull someone out of their body and was electrocuted. Turns out this person has never astral projected, and is probably not allowed to.

That was your experience. That doesn't mean they can't astral travel. That just means you can't pull that person out. Probably some sort of protection.

Everybody astral projects all the time, even when they're awake. Their astral body is there and perceives things, even if they don't do it consciously.

The same goes for OBE's. They might not remember it when they wake up, but they are doing it. And it doesn't matter if they are hobos on the street or the richest person in the world.

Samsara wrote: many of us who are curious of the occult have our own personal issue we are trying to work though. And it is in the metaphysical can we cope or find answers in the physical

Well, here's a secret: Everyone has their personal issues they're trying to work through, metaphysical or not.
The metaphysical just adds more issues to work through than just the physical.
All the problems I have in the physical can be solved in the physical, one doesn't need the metaphysical to cope or find answers.

Samsara wrote: Considering their are many spiritual practices that gives humans super natural strength, so a car can run over them and not die, through the help of gods/spirits/etc. I would say if a God were in any human body he could knock us all the FO.

Probably not if he's incarnated. Because he lacks all the knowledge. Aside from probably not even being able to support all that knowledge easily with the human body.
Also those practices, if you look at the Shaolin, don't need any gods or spirits. So the power is already within you and you just have to gain the knowledge how to access it.

That was your experience. That doesn't mean they can't astral travel. That just means you can't pull that person out. Probably some sort of protection.

Everybody astral projects all the time, even when they're awake. Their astral body is there and perceives things, even if they don't do it consciously.

The same goes for OBE's. They might not remember it when they wake up, but they are doing it. And it doesn't matter if they are hobos on the street or the richest person in the world.

Once again this is untrue. There are plenty on this site who have not astral projected or OBE and are paying good money to "remember" who can't "remember". I know life would be easy if we can just make blanket statements and that's the end of it. But we should listen to other people's experiences. If they say they can't or cannot or don't remember then it didn't happen. To say anything else is imposing your belief so we can live in our little lala reality.

Also those practices, if you look at the Shaolin, don't need any gods or spirits. So the power is already within you and you just have to gain the knowledge how to access it.

While that may or may not be true, the point was there are spiritual practices where people gain super human strength when they access spirits/entities/god. Because shaolin kung fu is a spiritual practice, it is unknown to the public if they do or don't have spiritual help. As far as I know any practice of Buddhism, often connects with deities. For goodness sake they light incense and meditate everyday, all day. They definitely are offering something to the deities, more than us even.

But have you ever notice that any human with any super natural gift, often only has one or two of them, rarely do they have them all. Thus another limitation. You can have many gifts, but not too strong, or one unnaturally strong gift and less of others. Which proves again, being in this human body is a limitation. And if a God were to reincarnate as a human, he is now human, thus limited. Therefore humans are less powerful than Gods. We are a single expression of God. Thus Gods as a whole is more than us. I don't feel less powerful because I know something of more power exists. So I don't get this need to exaggerate our place in the world. Admitting our weakness is the first step to growing stronger.