Aurum wrote:

cats_and_spirits wrote:Like I said: I'm not a pure servitor keeper and I have more other beings (entities/spirits) that servitors. But I'm curious about which great deal could be missed @Aurum. (Really, I don't want to let this sound mean, I'm really interested) is it the "challenge" to gain a spirits trust and build up a very deep relationship? Than I would agree full heartly. This is really something very beautiful to experience and achieve <3

I yes to building a relationship with a being, something that grows and evolves every day. Also all the knowledge a being thousands of years older than you can possess, view to other places and other times, the spiritual and magical knowledge these beings that lived long before you have, a wider perspective, a support to your personal evolution...... many more things.

And also I personally prefer to be loved and valued based on my own merits and who I am, I don't want anything who has no choice, something that was built that way in my life.

Ok, I understand that. But like DW said advanced Servitors can be set to be neutral towards you and you can build up a relationship with them.... when I talk about advanced Servitors I mean Kelis Alphas. They're servitors, but really highly advanced, almost entities (like Data from Star Trek). I don't want to advertise them, I just wanted to make that clear.
But you can imagine the attraction from a Servitor like this from an Ubi. They don't necessary love you, they just know that you're open to "play" with them and out of this a friendship can grow, or a simple give/take relationship.

If you mean normal Servitors, like these sold by CH and other sellers, I see your problem. I had one Servitor from another Seller, too. After he did his task successfully, I didn't really know what to do with him, so I send him to my mom to help her out :/

I think the discussion would turn in circles, because everyone of us has their own opinions and preferences on this, which is fine. I really love my Servitors and find it very fascinating what a single human being can create and others don't like AI at all. It's like a discussion, where people say why they like dragons more than griffons and the other way round.

I...don't really know what to contribute to this discussion except for my personal opinion and experience, so I let the stage to others : 3

Often what is missed when looking at Alphas, (as we all know that's what's a larger part of what is being discussed) is that they have their own awareness as well. Even though they can be called servitors, they have the same programming as we do, literally, from chakras right down to morals, from what DLM, Oriel, and others have said.

And if a certain type of ideal doesn't suit you, then don't ask for it that way. It's kind of like how conjuring has been as of late. Learning how to find one that will likely get along more with the person.
So if you don't want them, "built" that way, then simply ask for them to form their own opinion about you. I know personally I have had servitors that way, due to not getting them by designing them, but rather from a pre made listing, and other fashions.

It can be missed at times, and look rather one sided if you only look so far, with the talk of the said servitor being "perfect for them" or whatever it is the person says. But I would say until you get one, you really can't make an informed opinion on alphas.
Unless you have? @Noc The time I, asked, that was a negatory so I dunno

And, as DW has said, it can also be good for creative input, for things that aren't out there.

In my mind I don't treat it as a, "idealizing a character that will definitely like me". I'm giving this person, being, details, and allowing that idea to flourish so to speak.

Also, in relation to alphas, they do grow, adapt, and learn, on their own no less. So they will evolve and change. So they aren't stuck to one mindframe either.

But that's my 2cents anyways

cats_and_spirits wrote:

Aurum wrote:

cats_and_spirits wrote:Like I said: I'm not a pure servitor keeper and I have more other beings (entities/spirits) that servitors. But I'm curious about which great deal could be missed @Aurum. (Really, I don't want to let this sound mean, I'm really interested) is it the "challenge" to gain a spirits trust and build up a very deep relationship? Than I would agree full heartly. This is really something very beautiful to experience and achieve

I yes to building a relationship with a being, something that grows and evolves every day. Also all the knowledge a being thousands of years older than you can possess, view to other places and other times, the spiritual and magical knowledge these beings that lived long before you have, a wider perspective, a support to your personal evolution...... many more things.

And also I personally prefer to be loved and valued based on my own merits and who I am, I don't want anything who has no choice, something that was built that way in my life.

Ok, I understand that. But like DW said advanced Servitors can be set to be neutral towards you and you can build up a relationship with them.... when I talk about advanced Servitors I mean Kelis Alphas. They're servitors, but really highly advanced, almost entities (like Data from Star Trek). I don't want to advertise them, I just wanted to make that clear.
But you can imagine the attraction from a Servitor like this from an Ubi. They don't necessary love you, they just know that you're open to "play" with them and out of this a friendship can grow, or a simple give/take relationship.

If you mean normal Servitors, like these sold by CH and other sellers, I see your problem. I had one Servitor from another Seller, too. After he did his task successfully, I didn't really know what to do with him, so I send him to my mom to help her out

I think the discussion would turn in circles, because everyone of us has their own opinions and preferences on this, which is fine. I really love my Servitors and find it very fascinating what a single human being can create and others don't like AI at all. It's like a discussion, where people say why they like dragons more than griffons and the other way round.

I...don't really know what to contribute to this discussion except for my personal opinion and experience, so I let the stage to others 3

Hmmmm, very interesting. I actually can see how one could have use for a basic servitor for a specific task like protection, without the need of attention.

I guess I still don't see the appeal of more advanced servitors, in my opinion any construct is an artificial thing even if it's programmed with various qualities and that is not what I'm interested in. Of course, I dislike anime and don't care for popular culture so that part doesn't appeal to me either. But as said, these are personal opinions and each to their own and all that.

Darksbane wrote:
It can be missed at times, and look rather one sided if you only look so far, with the talk of the said servitor being "perfect for them" or whatever it is the person says. But I would say until you get one, you really can't make an informed opinion on alphas.
Unless you have? @Noc The time I, asked, that was a negatory so I dunno :)

And, as DW has said, it can also be good for creative input, for things that aren't out there.

In my mind I don't treat it as a, "idealizing a character that will definitely like me". I'm giving this person, being, details, and allowing that idea to flourish so to speak.

Also, in relation to alphas, they do grow, adapt, and learn, on their own no less. So they will evolve and change. So they aren't stuck to one mindframe either.

But that's my 2cents anyways

This! I wanted to say this the whole time, thank you for forming my tangle in my brain into words :)

But...yeah, this discussion won't lead anywhere, because we all have our standpoints and I doubt anyone of us will give in their standpoint. Like I said: It's all about preference :,D
Artificial or not. Every being has a right to be loved <3

*First some points of clarity I should make of my original post
While the topic is largely open depending on whatever comes up,
the question I pose is more geared toward the creation/keep of constructs which are man-made and then further, those whose creation are primarily based or focused on "fantasy, imagination and simulation", the modern development and trends essentially of keep and usage of servitors. Is that circumstance limiting to the individual etc.
Of course it could definitely be extended to a discussion of those who come into spirit-keeping as a whole simply to fulfill fantasies, that is still quite particular however.

As far as this discussion 'not leading anywhere'.. I think if you get the content of my original post, this can lead into many directions based on the contributions of others.

Just for instance, consider that when I ask
"why is it one may choose a servitor/construct in place of a spirit, magick or other entity equivalent"
this could raise a very precise argument of: when seeking the power of say a mermaid, why choose a servitor of a mermaid over an actual mermaid entity/spirit?
When seeking to commune with the god Helios, why seek a servitor of Helios? There may be many reasons why, but it's a curiosity to me to avoid the natural existence of something that consists of all you seek, for an AI equivalent.. and the discussion could take an interesting turn.

darkwing wrote: 2. For the neglecting certain facets, it can also be said to anyone who limit their keep, or their path etc. For example, those who limit to WA only or DA only, and those who focus on specific race e.g. angel only or demon only. And related to this discussion, those who exclude servitor/construct for their keep.

I think the neglect I speak of here is very distinct from what you have mentioned of certain facets.
However I may need to clarify; I have essentially raised a question of if the entirety of what can be gained beyond the realm of -fantasy, imagination, simulation- is being overlooked or undervalued etc. in this community. Granted especially that the construction of servitors is typically limited to what the individual knows and can craft.

Note to dw: My comment on power and it's tie to the natural world is in response to cats_and_spirits who compared the potential of a servitor to a very powerful organic entity, which I would again say is extremely limited to the capability and arsenal of the creator and is based on adaptability to natural currents/the infinite.

Darksbane wrote:Often what is missed when looking at Alphas, (as we all know that's what's a larger part of what is being discussed) is that they have their own awareness as well. Even though they can be called servitors, they have the same programming as we do, literally, from chakras right down to morals

...

But I would say until you get one, you really can't make an informed opinion on alphas.
Unless you have? @Noc The time I, asked, that was a negatory so I dunno

I do not have the intent of focusing on alphas, this realm is vast. But some thoughts -
Regardless of a constructed entity being given it's own sentience, chakras, morals; there will be limitations depending on the creator's range of ability and comprehension, and limitations on the basis of existence (reliant on something imagined).
An entity having the same programming as we do implies they are limited to human being, to be more than/distinct from this they would need the programming of a non-human being.

No, I do not keep an alpha.
I have over a decade of knowledge and experience with the realm of constructs, spawns and fictional reality (which include golems, tulpas, homunculi, godforms, ritual spawn, servitors) originating from 20th century chaos magick, predated to ancient practices and multiverse theory.
These are a precursor for any and all modern variations of the servitor. The popularity of constructs in this current day & age has, as far as I can see, served a very different range of interest than these precursors.

cats_and_spirits wrote:@Cult: I understand, thanks for the clarification Even if I wrote that I'm not interested in spiritual development in terms of metaphysical stuff, I'm still interested in developing psychological and mental. I just feel like (or better said: I learned) that I can only achieve this by myself. Without the helping of spells, but throught pure thinking and reflection of my actions.

I wouldn't say it's through the help of spells, it is by yourself. It comes with the building of principles, shadow work, internal end external discovery, alchemy etc - generally the deeper aspects of metaphysical practice that go beyond tackling practical issues like 'get your ex back today!!' and the sort. I'm telling you this solely for the sake of clarity, beyond that it is your choice to live however you want to live.

darkwing wrote:

Cult wrote:This fascination seems to promote and facilitate an already present issue in this community: substituting physical life with the spiritual, ie. sexual and social experiences. The two should coexist rather than replace, otherwise you are led to isolation and find comfort in something that can alleviate the weight of a psychological void but not fill it.

Yes, but this is not limited to this community, and not only with the spiritual. Out there, some substitute it with worklife, with hobbies, with sexual experiences, etc.

And yes, having flourishing physical life coexisting with spiritual/ metaphysical life is the ideal, but not everyone can have it. Some can only have one of them well, some just don't have both of them. With very bad physical life, it's not strange when people substitute with other stuff to cope with it, instead of doing something regrettable /

It is a wider problem yeah, but it's important to accentuate it in a spiritual community due to the fact that such a community is much more auspicious for the formation of delusions and the blurring of reality than others.
Cases like the one you just mentioned are different - if someone has a horrible physical life and consequently lives through the spiritual, this would be very distinct from someone who can have a flourishing physical life, but replaces it with something spiritual due to the lure of fantasy.

cats_and_spirits wrote:But...yeah, this discussion won't lead anywhere, because we all have our standpoints and I doubt anyone of us will give in their standpoint. Like I said: It's all about preference ,D

No one has to give in to any standpoint; a discussion is about learning rather than convincing.

I have a big family that consists of numerous spirits, entities, and servitors (from at least three different creators).

In each instance, the inspiration for bringing them here has been a look through their attributes and either feeling a calling, or else seeing that they can help with certain things that I wanted to boost in my life. For example, if I was looking for protection, prosperity, or help with bolstering a certain type of magick, and this particular spirit, entity, or servitor was skilled at helping with that, I sent in my order accordingly.

As a platonic keeper, I can't speak about or for the folks whose goal is to have specific intimate fantasies fulfilled by a spirit or entity, or by a servitor of their own custom design. I will leave that aspect of the discussion to the keepers who have explored that territory, as their motivations and experiences will vary widely.

Having said that, the servitors I do have were designed with skill, and came on board with reservoirs of knowledge that belie their relatively short time spent in this reality. They are aware that they're here because of my wishes, but I have zero desire to be treated by them as though there's an owner/property or deity/worshiper dynamic. I wouldn't feel at ease with that at all. I'd rather learn from their expertise and task them with assisting me according to said expertise. And my givebacks include honestly regarding them as family, on par with all my other non-physical family.

Erg..

Noctifera wrote:.. the question I pose is more geared toward the creation/keep of constructs which are man-made and then further, those whose creation are primarily based or focused on "fantasy, imagination and simulation", the modern development and trends essentially of keep and usage of servitors. Is that circumstance limiting to the individual etc.

I was hoping it would cover all kinds of servitor/construct creation, including basic construct (underrated yet very beneficial), to traditional servitor, and lastly the pop-culture-based ones. Then as the thread title said, compare them with magick and spirits/entities as in artificially created ones vs naturally born ones. It could be an interesting thesis that way, hearing how different experts and practitioners, as well as keepers, share and discuss their experiences..

Darksbane wrote:Often what is missed when looking at Alphas, (as we all know that's what's a larger part of what is being discussed) ...

I would not like it if this is limited to alpha servitors only. Not only that it overlooks other creators/sellers and practices based on pop-culture magick e.g. tulpamancy, but also it can lead to practitioners vs practitioners, and one's fanbase vs the other's fanbase. There are other threads with such interaction, and they didn't end happily.

Noctifera wrote:I think the neglect I speak of here is very distinct from what you have mentioned of certain facets.
However I may need to clarify; I have essentially raised a question of if the entirety of what can be gained beyond the realm of -fantasy, imagination, simulation- is being overlooked or undervalued etc. in this community. Granted especially that the construction of servitors is typically limited to what the individual knows and can craft.

I'm not sure about the neglect one, it would be beneficial if you'd clarify it.

I'd rephrase my reply regarding this: Not all keepers are in this path in order to gain something beyond, nor is it necessary for all to aim for it from the start. Some newcomers are just curious, some wish to "fulfill fantasies", some wish for help in daily life matters, some want another alternative besides magick, and other reasons. Most don't even know what can be gained beyond. This, I think, is similar to what happen to yoga, taichi, etc. which have long rich traditions and deeper aspects but reinvented and treated as healthy physical exercises in modern times.

But of course, everyone's path is different, and the keys might be different for each; some may not realize it at all. Among Buddha's disciples, only Mahakasyapa was enlightened from looking at flower. On the other hand, not all monks can reach enlightenment, as told by Shunryu Suzuki, and it is alright. Thus who knows if there would be someone who can gain much more from keeping a servitor/construct, or a single spirit. On the other hand, it is also possible that those who keep many spirits/entities/servitors may gain less. I believe if it is sufficient for them here and now, then why not?

Cult wrote:It is a wider problem yeah, but it's important to accentuate it in a spiritual community due to the fact that such a community is much more auspicious for the formation of delusions and the blurring of reality than others.

Rrrg, if we're talking about delusions, there are two points to be noted:

1. Spirit-keeping is a niche among the already niche metaphysical practices. Many in the mainstream practices consider spirit-keeping as questionable, e.g. as seen in this other forum:
http://wizardforums.com/Thread-Spirit-Keeping
Or in S. Connolly's Spirit Keeping & Spirit Vessels.
And of course, most metaphysical practices are considered questionable by physical science.

2. One hypothesis: Those who are prone to delusion will most likely become delusional, those who are not will least likely become delusional; no matter if their paths are in religion, mysticism, alien, magick, energy working, spirit-keeping, etc., no matter if they keep spirits, entities, servitors, or angel, demon, or immortal bindings.

*nods* @DarkW You speak better than me here lol

If we can believe buddhist teaching and live an death is an illusion, also knowledge and existence and we're probably just an imagination of ourselves and "reality" is just nothing, than...it's pretty useless discussing the why's and how's, because as long as it makes others happy I see no problem in this whole thing. That's why I said "I just want some guys to hang out with", because everything else is worthless in my opinion. What is knowledge and power, if you can't share this joy with others? What is joy, if only you can feel and express it to yourself? If nobody cares about you, you could be the mightiest person on earth, but it would be a very lonely existence.