Noctifera wrote:Just for instance, consider that when I ask
"why is it one may choose a servitor/construct in place of a spirit, magick or other entity equivalent"
this could raise a very precise argument of: when seeking the power of say a mermaid, why choose a servitor of a mermaid over an actual mermaid entity/spirit?
When seeking to commune with the god Helios, why seek a servitor of Helios? There may be many reasons why, but it's a curiosity to me to avoid the natural existence of something that consists of all you seek, for an AI equivalent.. and the discussion could take an interesting turn.

That's an interesting point. I don't think I have any servitors that are a direct match for spirits or entities that actually exist. If there are folks out there with servitors that do correlate with specific spirits or types/races of spirits, or specific immortals, do please post here.

To the "delusional"-thingie. We're seen by the majority of society as delusional and we may be delusional, but we will find out the truth when we're dead and arguing who is the most delusional and why is...ridiculous. Especially in our community. I mean...we all talk to invisible beings and who can judge which being is real and which is not? A written word has no bigger meaning than the experience of some guy.
But even if it's that we're delusional...where's the problem? As long as you're grounded in the physical world and act as a valuable member of human society there's nothing wrong in believing in things that others see as "weird". (Even in our community)
I count myself in, when I'm saying this. The majority of the time, when I interact with otherworldly beings, I think about myself as crazy and delusional, but it makes me happy to believe what I believe, I still live in the physical world, when I go for my everyday life and I don't hurt others with it.

My last two cents to this. I promise :p

Darkwing: I have no intention of limiting the discussion to what I've outlined, it's just something I was hoping to see addressed and what I was broaching in my OP. Given the broad scope of 'Servitors vs. Beyond' all of what you say is a welcome component to the topic going forward, of course!

I think it's a great topic because there are ways in which these worlds merge and ways in which they really distinguish themselves -- the AI vs Natural let us say on even a more distinctive note.
Not to mention.. there have been a lot of changes in this spirit-keeping community as a result of the uprise in popularity in legitimizing fiction and fantasy as having it's own metaphysical substance.. Consider that a decade or so ago it really wouldn't fly around here to be talking about like Goku or a Pokemon as your spiritual companion lol (and without a kill-switch at that), it's a serious shift and it's worth looking at. This really wasn't something commonplace until more recently. To see it so popular *here* makes it relevant to consider how those involved very heavily with constructs really feel about --all the rest.

I post this initially with regards to a curiosity regarding specific trends I notice.
The example I gave in my previous post is a solid sort of microcosmic idea of something peculiar I'm hoping to tackle. Allow me to be a little blunt; I do think fantasy and fulfillment of specific personal desires have often come before recognizing the outer reality of many forces, I think this is a potential issue and kind of degrading/demeaning to that outer world in some cases (note: SOME cases..) not to mention stifling to the individual who will not see beyond their controlled world. I am wondering if people who come into this keeping-path completely fresh and open to the potentials may get sidetracked with the focus of fantasy fulfillment in something like servitor/constructs and barely open themselves to the capabilities beyond, which are in fact crucial to many well-formed constructs.
Maybe a lack of balance and understanding of the metaphysical world one is getting themselves into is at the center of what I mention above.

On another level I also have a concern for maintaining the integrity of construct/servitor origins in occult history, which I have alluded to a few times. To educate others a little on where this all began and the significance behind it.. as it relates so intimately to the 'Beyond' I speak of.

I'm not coming up against servitor keeping, I'm not looking to reach some specific conclusion but to really dive into a substantial and enduring discussion on matters I think could be relevant and enlightening to dissect.
When you understand that the popularity in this community of fiction, servitor-keeping, the like is a fairly recent development it may shed light on why I posted this.

I value the input all so far have given and would like to see more contributors with varied views and experiences as well. :pumpkin: :pumpkin:

Noctifera wrote:I'm not coming up against servitor keeping, I'm not looking to reach some specific conclusion but to really dive into a substantial and enduring discussion on matters I think could be relevant and enlightening to dissect.

Erg, my replies were not intended to focus on servitor keeping, forgive me if they're perceived as such : (
It was to avoid the forum from becoming too exclusive, in which some members become very aggressive and militant in policing the forum, while the others are too afraid to post. This can be seen in another forum some time ago, where generally certain questions and shared experiences from newer members were being mocked and ridiculed by more experienced members as the latter felt "offended" by the topics that don't conform to their believes.

Looking at the past threads, there were members who gave up on spirit-keeping overall. There are members who have been years in spirit-keeping, yet still have problem with connecting. And as seen in the previous post, there are prominent practitioners of other paths who don't receive the benefit of spirit-keeping. This is the argument against whether those focusing on fantasy-based construct keeping will neglect what you consider as the greater reward that can be gained from traditional one; some of those in traditional paths may not be able to find it already, or may even reject it as well.

Noctifera wrote:... there have been a lot of changes in this spirit-keeping community as a result of the uprise in popularity in legitimizing fiction and fantasy as having it's own metaphysical substance.. Consider that a decade or so ago it really wouldn't fly around here to be talking about like Goku or a Pokemon as your spiritual companion lol (and without a kill-switch at that), it's a serious shift and it's worth looking at. This really wasn't something commonplace until more recently. To see it so popular *here* makes it relevant to consider how those involved very heavily with constructs really feel about

The seemingly increasing popularity of those topics may also be caused by the decreasing number of new posts and active threads discussing other topics. This might be caused by the following:
-the older members with knowledge & experience as well as the practitioners have left the forum, or don't post anymore, or not as active as in the past.
-various topics have been discussed comprehensively in the past threads, thus it is difficult to find new topics that can engage long discussion.

Furthermore, the mentioned of "shift" reminds me of this discussion:
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic42430.html
Years ago, the idea of demon keeping was frowned upon. Even now when the idea is more acceptable, there are still some who wouldn't touch the subject. Looking at several other threads, we can see there were serious debates about it, leading to a group leaving the forum to create a safer place to discuss it. I'm hoping that this can be avoided.

darkwing wrote:Erg, my replies were not intended to focus on servitor keeping, forgive me if they're perceived as such (
It was to avoid the forum from becoming too exclusive, in which some members become very aggressive and militant in policing the forum, while the others are too afraid to post. This can be seen in another forum some time ago, where generally certain questions and shared experiences from newer members were being mocked and ridiculed by more experienced members as the latter felt "offended" by the topics that don't conform to their believes.

Given how this is a thread posing nothing but a 'why'.. and offering a different perspective on servitors than the commonly accepted one nowadays, you have to consider that what might be happening here is the reverse of what you are trying to avoid.
If we will address militance on this forum, it is just as possible I can be made to feel like I'm walking on eggshells when I post and so refrain from it.

Looking at the past threads, there were members who gave up on spirit-keeping overall. There are members who have been years in spirit-keeping, yet still have problem with connecting. And as seen in the previous post, there are prominent practitioners of other paths who don't receive the benefit of spirit-keeping. This is the argument against whether those focusing on fantasy-based construct keeping will neglect what you consider as the greater reward that can be gained from traditional one; some of those in traditional paths may not be able to find it already, or may even reject it as well.

The seemingly increasing popularity of those topics may also be caused by the decreasing number of new posts and active threads discussing other topics. This might be caused by the following:
-the older members with knowledge & experience as well as the practitioners have left the forum, or don't post anymore, or not as active as in the past.
-various topics have been discussed comprehensively in the past threads, thus it is difficult to find new topics that can engage long discussion.

That is fine; different things work for different people, no one is insisting otherwise. My consideration of the Beyond is not really about a greater reward in it, but about the substance in it -- which supports construct creation, and if it maybe is being avoided, overlooked, undervalued, ignored, or lost to fantasy in some cases or to some extent. I have clarified that this is not something which applies to every keeper of servitor/constructs, it's a broader question of how these are reconciled in the modern day, and of the stance of those new to this community who might start out with it, or who are considerably influenced by that.

Since you've brought up the possibility of older members with knowledge and experience having left the forum, I might suggest that similarly some of them have done so due to perceived disinterest in knowledge, given popularity of these new trends p
With the changing focus of this community, it may offer very little now to members who focus on deeper practices..
There isn't any harm necessarily in fantasy fulfillment and the like, but those who are coming here seeking those resources rather than the lighter approach may find this community has nothing to offer. The issue here is balance.

Furthermore, the mentioned of "shift" reminds me of this discussion:
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic42430.html
Years ago, the idea of demon keeping was frowned upon. Even now when the idea is more acceptable, there are still some who wouldn't touch the subject. Looking at several other threads, we can see there were serious debates about it, leading to a group leaving the forum to create a safer place to discuss it. I'm hoping that this can be avoided.

This is a topic that is aiming to start a discussion about a practice rather than shut down said practice.
It can't be compared to the keeping of demons or BA, a 'why' and a 'don't' are two very different mindsets.
This has been clarified many times.. I know you're wishing to preserve the peace, but there is no attack occurring here. The reaction this topic has elicited is a little perplexing, I've never had to sugarcoat in the past to be able to express my stance and have others engage in a healthy discussion.
It's a topic questioning, not rejecting, and needn't be met with defensiveness. I encourage the input of others to draw out some interesting tangents.

darkwing wrote:

Cult wrote:It is a wider problem yeah, but it's important to accentuate it in a spiritual community due to the fact that such a community is much more auspicious for the formation of delusions and the blurring of reality than others.

Rrrg, if we're talking about delusions, there are two points to be noted:

1. Spirit-keeping is a niche among the already niche metaphysical practices. Many in the mainstream practices consider spirit-keeping as questionable, e.g. as seen in this other forum:
http://wizardforums.com/Thread-Spirit-Keeping
Or in S. Connolly's Spirit Keeping & Spirit Vessels.
And of course, most metaphysical practices are considered questionable by physical science.

2. One hypothesis: Those who are prone to delusion will most likely become delusional, those who are not will least likely become delusional; no matter if their paths are in religion, mysticism, alien, magick, energy working, spirit-keeping, etc., no matter if they keep spirits, entities, servitors, or angel, demon, or immortal bindings.

Don't rrrg at me darkwing, I am drunk and scared lol

That steers the discussion towards whether or not spirit keeping is legitimate, which is a different matter.

The topic in and of itself implies that we accept the legitimacy of spirit keeping, so if our approach is grounded in this stance:
Delusion is very easy to promote and create in a metaphysically oriented community, simply due to the elusive nature of such pursuits. Spiritual senses are hardly as clear cut as physical ones, and can be confused with simple thought patterns/imagination/whatever. With your hypothesis in mind, if someone is already prone to delusion, a practice focused on what is generally perceived as fantastical creatures will typically enable this and consequently perpetuate problems in both the person's life and the community.

This can provoke delusion in relatively level headed members who are going through something emotionally charged enough to cloud their thinking, or someone new and susceptible who might still be learning about this path. This can apply to anyone who does not practice adequate discernment and logical thinking either due to neglect, ignorance or difficult circumstances that lead to false hope or false pessimism, which can be enabled if the atmosphere of the community isn't constructively scrutinizing. All of that increases the likelihood of 'normal' people adopting delusional frames of thought in either a major or a minor way; this higher probability makes the issue critical in a spiritual space. The amount of sketchy people we've seen coming and going on the forum attests to this, whether they have been scammers who take advantage of this problem or the aforementioned delusional people.

Gotta clarify that I'm asserting this is a problem in any kind of metaphysical community, regardless of the specifics of individual paths whether they be servitors, spirits, immortals, etc.

If we accept that spirit keeping is questionable, there is even more importance in underlining the value of discernment and objectivity if you want to navigate this practice and analyze its legitimacy.

If we are to approach it from a stance that spirit keeping is illegitimate, then all of this is negated.

cats_and_spirits wrote:To the "delusional"-thingie. We're seen by the majority of society as delusional and we may be delusional, but we will find out the truth when we're dead and arguing who is the most delusional and why is...ridiculous. Especially in our community. I mean...we all talk to invisible beings and who can judge which being is real and which is not? A written word has no bigger meaning than the experience of some guy.
But even if it's that we're delusional...where's the problem? As long as you're grounded in the physical world and act as a valuable member of human society there's nothing wrong in believing in things that others see as "weird". (Even in our community)
I count myself in, when I'm saying this. The majority of the time, when I interact with otherworldly beings, I think about myself as crazy and delusional, but it makes me happy to believe what I believe, I still live in the physical world, when I go for my everyday life and I don't hurt others with it.

My last two cents to this. I promise :p

Well, delusion compromises that ability to be grounded in the physical world and act as a valuable member of society, either to a lesser or more considerable extent. The weirdness of a belief doesn't relate to whether or not it's true. I'm liking your innovative perspective though.

The absolute, cut and dry, universally objective 'truth' is irrelevant exactly because it cannot be found. That's a philosophical matter rather than a practical matter. This doesn't negate the purpose of being discerning in practical matters, since if you are living on this plane, with this limited understanding, it is generally beneficial to you to stick to a workable, rational sense of 'truth'.

For example, let's suppose spirit keeping is not a delusion, and I am telepathically talking to my spirit Jim. I ask Jim, "Did my roommate lie to me about [x] the other day?" Jim says yes. I am tragically horrible at telepathy so I delude myself into thinking he said 'no' because it is most convenient for me. I go about my life letting my roommate get away with a lie that may or may not harm me in the long run. Eventually I might find out it's a lie and my belief or relationship with Jim is destroyed.
The reverse - Jim says no. I am a paranoid freak and I delude myself into thinking he said yes. I start to distrust my roommate, potentially confront him, refuse to listen to his side of things due to my absolute trust in anything 'Jim' tells me, and get kicked out.

An extreme, non-spirit keeping related example that also notes the importance of generally not being deluded is if you vehemently refuse to go to the doctor for some life threatening condition because you believe all doctors are demons in disguise.. this is the basis of why schizophrenia is considered a mental illness.

As for relatively harmless delusions, they can easily lead to or support harmful ones in the same way a white lie can sometimes lead to or support a larger scheme.

We might all be deluded, but it's important to function with this in mind as a possibility rather than a basis. If you treat it like a possibility then you are open to being wrong and this can provoke further growth and evolution. If you treat it like a basis, then anything goes, and you can spiral down into really messed up mindframes and territory which can lead to you wasting time, energy, money, potentially compromise your mental or physical health or whatever else you care about.

Hello everybody hope all is well this is a very interesting topic so I thought I would add my two cents in order to insert a different perspective on the subject. Let me start with a quote I just found siding the web:

"Your gut is your inner compass. Whenever you have to consult with other people for an answer, you're headed in the wrong direction."
-Oprah

I feel like this quote is relevant to the topic for the following reasons. When it comes to the paranormal, supernatural, spirit keeping, witch craft & wizardry everybody has their own beliefs, skill sets, abilities and experiences. A forum like ch is a double edged sword in the sense that some peoples beliefs conflict with others beliefs in a way where everybody wants to be the primary authority and have the last ultimate say on any subject. Now I'm not saying everybody is wrong to post their beliefs wholeheartedly and fight for what you believe in however I see it from the perspective that everybody is correct. Life is an open ended experience and there is certainly no rule book for what can and can't be believed in however it comes down to the individual to be responsible to determine their own truths and beliefs. The beauty of ch is that this is a place where people can share their experiences and not be imediately dismissed as a loony toon, even though that isn't the case 100% of the time and there are certainly exceptions to the rule. Now having said all that I feel people choosing to go full servitors in their keep are missing out on the knowledge and experience a spirit that has the potential to live thousands of years has to offer the keeper while at the same time even though I don't own a custom made servitor how cool would it be to have a companion of your favorite character? A entity that has its own thoughts opinions energy that grows with you the more you experience it? I certainly wouldn't mind having a sonic the hedgehog servitor to motive me to move faster or be braver but at the same time I have spirits in my family that help me understand my own energy and abilities. I guess my end point here is I don't judge lest I be judged, I treat others how I treat myself, the more I understand another spirit/servitor keeper the more I understand about myself. I'm greatful just to be able to write all of this and know that at least one person will understand where I'm coming from its where ch truly shines as a forum and community. Anyway hope I didn't derail the thread too badly with my thoughts but I'm happy I had the opportunity to do so.

Noctifera wrote:
If we will address militance on this forum, it is just as possible I can be made to feel like I'm walking on eggshells when I post and so refrain from it.

Rrm, sorry about that, Noc, never intended to make you feel that way : / I was referring to what happened in other forums, and then this kind of posts:
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/top ... ml#p711575

It'll be a huge loss if you also refrain from posting : (

Cult wrote:Don't rrrg at me darkwing, I am drunk and scared lol

Sorry about that, delusion can be a complicated and sensitive topic : /

I agree with Cult and Noc, that since there is profit to be made, the original nuances of spirit companions and servitors have been lost in favor of fantasy promises. It has brought in lots of newbie customers but equally confused and disappointed a lot of people, myself included.
I truly didn’t understand what I was getting into, and I got into a lot of arguments because of it.
Trying to find the real “beyond” is still proving to be difficult.