Servitude.
By me saying that one word, maybe you feel offended and your mind flashes to pre-civil war times where slaves were a thing. Maybe not. But in my mind, what is the difference between keeping a human as a slave (trust me, just an analogy) and keeping a spirit? Are they not the same, or at least close?
Is there a way to break their "shackles" and allow them to freely roam, do as they wish, or even leave completely? I know with ones that I summoned, I ask them to stay, but I simply inform them that they may leave if they feel I do not treat them right or they just don't want to be around.
But, not knowing the spells, enchantments, or anything else (runes, entrapment, etc.) on the vessals. how can I make sure that I am ethically keeping these spirits. And yes, as Ash and Mag. would say "they chose to be with you" but I'm not so sure. A dog can choose to follow me home, but it doesn't mean that just because it walked through my threshold that I should never let the animal go back to it's home (if it has one).
I hope this makes sense. And, I suppose another question is: How do I break the CH contract to form my own with the spirits. Again, not knowing the enchantments means that the spirit could easily be revoked by A or M or even be told to attack me. All of which, are not what I payed for. So to make it easier on myself and my spirits I want to break their contracts and reform them so it's just me and them with no middle-person(s).
Thanks. 2lv
Post-Order Rationalization?
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Sephiroth
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If you want the contract ended with CH spirits then you should contact CH helpdesk. Any reputable seller puts measures to counteract you abusing them or treating them bad.
Its not the spirit that you buy, its more like a personal channel to them.
And lastly comparing slavery with spirit keeping is kinda insulting . Its not like we make them work 20hours a day, hitting them with whips and not be thankful for them helping us. Respect is the keyword.
Sadly there might be sellers who do the things you mentioned, thats why researching before buying is crucial.
Its not the spirit that you buy, its more like a personal channel to them.
And lastly comparing slavery with spirit keeping is kinda insulting . Its not like we make them work 20hours a day, hitting them with whips and not be thankful for them helping us. Respect is the keyword.
Sadly there might be sellers who do the things you mentioned, thats why researching before buying is crucial.
WubbaLubbaDubDub
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victorias
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Thanks for the insight. Again, some people do see their spirits as slaves. While I see the contract with CH as servitude, many see it as protection.Wulfke wrote:snip
The downside to asking Ash or Mag to remove their shackles is that they could just as easily tell the spirits to curse me, to haunt me, or even take the spirits back.
The not knowing is the worse.
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CerataPhthalma
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If you're that concerned, perhaps you should learn to evoke and conjure on your own. That is the only way to completely remove "the middle man" and set the "contract" in whatever terms you like.
It can also be exceedingly dangerous work if you don't know what you are doing. I recommend lots of reading, lots of practice, and a good practicioner you can call upon when a spirit attempts to break you.
It can also be exceedingly dangerous work if you don't know what you are doing. I recommend lots of reading, lots of practice, and a good practicioner you can call upon when a spirit attempts to break you.
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victorias
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Thanks for the info. Yeah, it's wise but it's more difficult. I was just hopping for reassurance, however it's apparent that many in this community doesn't want to help.CerataPhthalma wrote:snip
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victorias
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That's actually a good idea. I'll consider it and talk to them. I hope they don't feel they have to be coerced to say one thing or the other because of the contract.Aurum wrote:snip
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Noctua
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No, it's not remotely close.
In the case of you summoning a being and asking them to stay if they want or leave if they want, this is not a fortification of connection -- it could lead to attachment but it would not generally allow the same level of communication as a binding. This is why such is typically relegated to temporary work or communion with beings, but there are plenty who would rather have a strong manner of contact or connection with particular spirits for an ongoing basis (and many who do not themselves practice the craft who could benefit from this) for which being able to keep a binding/channel is helpful.
Reputably conducted spirit 'bindings' are closer to a fortified channel through which you can connect to a spirit on a personal and direct level of presence. Similar to having a friend/acquaintance on speed-dial, not having them chained up in your basement..
An experienced and capable conjurer has no need to force spirits into shackles, they earn their respect and standing with the spirit realm and the spirits understand they are conduits through which an enhanced level of contact can be made with human beings.
It doesn't actually bind them to do anything for you whatsoever, that's why the bonding/connecting process exists --it grants you the opportunity to connect and form a bond with a spirit in a more constructive, protected and clarified environment. As you would if you received a contact of a person you resonate to and have an opportunity to commune with them on a more frequent or involved basis.
You can just as easily receive a binding and never connect at all with said spirit, it doesn't make a huge difference to their existence other than the fact that if they came forward to interact then they wanted to be involved with you. Sure, if you don't wish for that kind of involvement, then a binding/contract needn't be formed, it's relatively pointless (although plenty would say it's smart to form some sort of agreement/concurrence with a being you wish to connect with even on a vague or short-term basis.)
If you don't trust the ethics of the conjurers (Magnolia & Ash) whom you received from, then don't work with them. Never walk into that situation again. You should take the time to research and decide something resonates before diving in.
If you'd rather interact with unbound spirits then you're not going to seek out professionally bound spirits, so you're in the midst of a conundrum here because if you release the binding process (which can be requested of the conjurers easily) then you're considering a very different kind of connective process.
Spirits' home are their realm, they aren't disconnected from their realm just by being brought into a formal link with you. Your analogy to the dog following you home is irrelevant for a few reasons.
With these bindings it's not up to you whether they have freedom to wander or to which capacity they do, they inherently do, that never changes. A physical friend you create a link to would as well, unless you knowingly restrict or go psycho on them; that psychosis isn't a part of reputable spirit binding, it is not what CH facilitates.
What you paid for was a spirit binding.. lol. So yes, the spirit connection will be revoked if you ask it to be revoked, it was a connection established through their conjuring/binding process after all.
If you wanted to connect with this same spirit through your own means and contract, you're not barred from doing so but it's likely something you should discuss with Magnolia & Ash once you ask your bindings to be rendered - as that forms a more complex situation what with magicks already in place.
Essentially it seems like you simply wanted an awareness of spirits for communing with and not an actual connection to be formulated on your behalf.
That's fine, it is your prerogative and up to what makes sense for your path, but you are unfamiliar with the practices of Magnolia & Ash and your insinuations that they are shackling spirits, or that upon revoking could instruct said spirits to attack you show not only a lack of understanding in this work but an absurd view of Magnolia & Ash's character as these are respected conjurers -- which (in their history, their beliefs and the nature of their methods as revealed through countless shared articles, posts, reviews, etc.) is something you could have spent a little time getting to know.
Would it be that you still harbor uncertainty, it is worth saying that if you do not have decent capability of discernment with regards to the nature of these conjurers and what their bindings entail, I am unsure how you could safely deal in contracts with unbound spirits.
In the case of you summoning a being and asking them to stay if they want or leave if they want, this is not a fortification of connection -- it could lead to attachment but it would not generally allow the same level of communication as a binding. This is why such is typically relegated to temporary work or communion with beings, but there are plenty who would rather have a strong manner of contact or connection with particular spirits for an ongoing basis (and many who do not themselves practice the craft who could benefit from this) for which being able to keep a binding/channel is helpful.
Reputably conducted spirit 'bindings' are closer to a fortified channel through which you can connect to a spirit on a personal and direct level of presence. Similar to having a friend/acquaintance on speed-dial, not having them chained up in your basement..
An experienced and capable conjurer has no need to force spirits into shackles, they earn their respect and standing with the spirit realm and the spirits understand they are conduits through which an enhanced level of contact can be made with human beings.
It doesn't actually bind them to do anything for you whatsoever, that's why the bonding/connecting process exists --it grants you the opportunity to connect and form a bond with a spirit in a more constructive, protected and clarified environment. As you would if you received a contact of a person you resonate to and have an opportunity to commune with them on a more frequent or involved basis.
You can just as easily receive a binding and never connect at all with said spirit, it doesn't make a huge difference to their existence other than the fact that if they came forward to interact then they wanted to be involved with you. Sure, if you don't wish for that kind of involvement, then a binding/contract needn't be formed, it's relatively pointless (although plenty would say it's smart to form some sort of agreement/concurrence with a being you wish to connect with even on a vague or short-term basis.)
If you don't trust the ethics of the conjurers (Magnolia & Ash) whom you received from, then don't work with them. Never walk into that situation again. You should take the time to research and decide something resonates before diving in.
If you'd rather interact with unbound spirits then you're not going to seek out professionally bound spirits, so you're in the midst of a conundrum here because if you release the binding process (which can be requested of the conjurers easily) then you're considering a very different kind of connective process.
Spirits' home are their realm, they aren't disconnected from their realm just by being brought into a formal link with you. Your analogy to the dog following you home is irrelevant for a few reasons.
With these bindings it's not up to you whether they have freedom to wander or to which capacity they do, they inherently do, that never changes. A physical friend you create a link to would as well, unless you knowingly restrict or go psycho on them; that psychosis isn't a part of reputable spirit binding, it is not what CH facilitates.
What you paid for was a spirit binding.. lol. So yes, the spirit connection will be revoked if you ask it to be revoked, it was a connection established through their conjuring/binding process after all.
If you wanted to connect with this same spirit through your own means and contract, you're not barred from doing so but it's likely something you should discuss with Magnolia & Ash once you ask your bindings to be rendered - as that forms a more complex situation what with magicks already in place.
Essentially it seems like you simply wanted an awareness of spirits for communing with and not an actual connection to be formulated on your behalf.
That's fine, it is your prerogative and up to what makes sense for your path, but you are unfamiliar with the practices of Magnolia & Ash and your insinuations that they are shackling spirits, or that upon revoking could instruct said spirits to attack you show not only a lack of understanding in this work but an absurd view of Magnolia & Ash's character as these are respected conjurers -- which (in their history, their beliefs and the nature of their methods as revealed through countless shared articles, posts, reviews, etc.) is something you could have spent a little time getting to know.
Would it be that you still harbor uncertainty, it is worth saying that if you do not have decent capability of discernment with regards to the nature of these conjurers and what their bindings entail, I am unsure how you could safely deal in contracts with unbound spirits.
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CrashingDown
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Others said it better, so I won't rehash it, but both I (and quite a few in my Keep) were vastly insulted by your insinuation that Ash and Magnolia are doing anything remotely close to slavery. I get the feeling you've never actually experienced a conversation with your spirits, if you have any, about this subject. I recommend talking to them (if you're able) to get their opinions on this subject rather than assuming that they're forced to be with and obey you.
"Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value." --Albert Einstein
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victorias
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While it was never my intention to offend you, nor do I believe that my message was offensive, but I understand how some may feel offended by it. By speaking to a spirit, doesn't mean that they cannot be coerced into saying one thing, or another.CrashingDown wrote:snip
Think of it like this: You are a manager at a store, and a robber comes into the store. Will you sacrifice your employs to simply save company face? Or will you rather attempt to save a life, with a possibility of loosing your job?
I know, hypothetical, but it paints the picture of the amount of unknowns. I came to the forums to attempt to get an understanding, not to be yelled at or castrated because I don't 100% understand what I want to understand, in thus I ask for help. Much like when you were being raised, you had your guardians to help you grow up and answer questions for you. You, as a more mature member of the forums, are my guardian when it comes to such a thing, you are the model person I look towards to see answers.
So in summary: I'm sorry if my three minutes of asking for help offended or bothered you in any way shape or form, but I wanted advice, not to be ridiculed and scoffed at.
