Wow.. this thread has started to turn nasty.

Gabriel you are not only confrontational but also highly disrespectful and very biased. I recommend that you take a step back and analyse both your own and other's viewpoints.

I have no experience with the 'Borg cube' and therefore cannot comment on that, however

Gabriel wrote: Weather or not God Yahwey exists or not is the main question here.

I have no doubt at all that he exists. I think the real question should be 'Is Yahweh really the Creator, or is he an imposter?". I personally lean toward the latter, and I have chosen not to follow him because of this. I do believe that there is a true Creator however, who I refer to as Source. I do not see any logic at all in that an all powerful being would create an infiniteness of his will that fully encompasses both ends of the spectrum, only to then make contact with humanity and tell them how to live their lives. It is simply a preposterous idea to me and I will not go along with it. The bible is full of atrocities that even Lucifer himself does not agree with.

Gabriel, you need to understand and respect that others here do not share your beliefs. They have been respectful of yours, despite that most of them do not share them. Your Yarweh has his own heaven, I've no doubt of that, but the other Gods have theirs too.

since the post is about Yahweh and his angels
maybe yahweh himself should punish you for your blind ignorance. None of you know of yahweh or his angels look at your titles a vampire commenting on yahweh and a dark abyss lol i am laughing its so funny picture this a vampire or dark spirit in heaven oh i would love to be a fly on the wall so to speak lol im leaving this post alone now you all need to grow pair. You got you attention and ile leave it t that. maybe mag and ash should step in and have their say would be good.

And why should he punish those of us who choose not to worship him? He knows that he is not the only god, he just wants us to worship him as if he is... He said so himself, when he gave his first of ten Commandments to Moses.

“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV

Btw, it's rather hypocritical don't you think, to suggest that Yarweh would want to punish us for being ignorant? After all, he allegedly threw Adam & Eve out of the Garden of Eden because they ate of the Tree of Knowledge, because they had been convinced that knowledge was good and they wanted to learn but Yarweh himself wanted to keep them ignorant and in the dark. He is the last who would punish ignorance.

And why are you assuming that those of us who disagree with you are ignorant. You know nothing of us, you do not have our life experiences, you do not know why we believe as we do. I can assure you that each of us here has a very good reason for believing in who we choose to believe in or for deciding that we cannot believe in any god at all. And you may not be aware, but some of us do have Vampire blood in us, I do. And some have other entities, I think some even have Angel. It's not so funny and that comment of yours is just plain rude. Oh and it's ignorant too. We as humans are ALL dark. So IF there really is a heaven, Borg Cube or not, it will be filled with dark spirits, because even if we decide to act only 'white' that is still a CHOICE we make and we can easily decide to CHOOSE to act dark if we so wish.

mmmmm some thought provoking points of view etc coming through here and yes we each have our own thoughts on this, to which each and every one of us are entitled ......that is why we have free will.
to mock, dictate or try and impress your views on another individual i feel is wrong, but who am i to say i am right and someone else is wrong?
We are all aware that religion and lack of respect for others beliefs has started many wars and conflicts thoughout time.
i personally believe that we are all on this path together and should stick together regardless of our origins, who we worship etc and should keep an open mind to others experiences and thoughts, none of us are wrong and it certainly isnt our place to judge and condemn others
hopefully i will have got across what i am trying to say ( i have always struggled to convey in writing what i really mean lol) but i sure can hold a mean verbal conversation he he xxx

Gabriel, I have to question your sanity here.

First, you pick a fight with a scary woman during the worst possible time of the month. That is never a good idea, least of all during these difficult days. Masculine survival instincts should have prevented that. Be grateful she let you off easy.

Second, this is a very tolerant community open to all exploring that which traditional science does not explain adequately enough or at all. People of all walks of life come to here to discuss topics of mutual interest and do it without pushing their beliefs on anyone else. You will find very little evangelism here, because people here have no need to convince themselves of what they claim to believe. I am happy to share my experiences, but am also the first to say my path is atypical. I urge extreme caution and reconsideration to anyone considering following in my footsteps. Do enough reading on the BA forums and you will see Ash, Magnolia and I all give similar advice on the black arts.

Third, your responses show you have had very few, if any, interactions with angels. I have worked with and had direct communication with the Holy Guardian Angel, the same group that worked with Crowley. When it comes to angels, it doesn't get any higher than that. None of them contradict my interpretation of events. We have had several arguments about these and other Yahweh injustices. Some will admit he was out of line and argue the good outweighs the bad, others get nasty when I have the unmitigated gall to think for myself. Much as you do when others here think for themselves, oddly enough. I had plenty of other interactions with angels in the decades before my upgrade to the Left Hand Path, and those can't be described as anything but quid pro quo relationships at best. That is fine, I would just like to call it what it is and not pretend that isn't the case. Considering that Noc and I actually work with angels and speak from experience while you spout cliches, I submit that we know far more about the topic at hand than you. Your diatribes betray your ignorance. Try learning something from your elders for a change.

Fourth, you are yet to address "the main point of the thread" which stems from my personal experience in the heaven you so adore. My personal experiences, and that of many others, directly contradicts your entire argument. The angels there know what they are doing with the trapped souls and do not feel the slightest compassion or remorse. I would like an explanation as to why it is acceptable for your god to offer false promises to his followers so he may exploit them for his own ends, robbing them of their lives, dignity and Sacred Honor. At least offer something more constructive than nuh-uh to refute such common experiences.

Since you have such faith in Yahweh, you would be well advised to pray for a better survival instinct. By picking a fight with Noc you are also picking a fight with a very scary Lord of the Night who does not find you the least bit amusing. I assure sure he does not take kindly to your pathetic attempt to belittle his people. Further, you are dangerously close to tasting the wrath of someone who is considered a personal friend by the Five Horsemen, commands powers of darkness beyond your comprehension from which no angel would dare shield you and is accepted as a member of the family in Asgard. Think I won't? Try me. I have balls the size of grapefruits.

Before you say Yahweh is going to get me and hide behind him, I'm not scared of him anymore. He knows he is welcome to bring it at any time, and won't come away unscathed. I refuse to be a slave to him or anyone else.

Now, if you'll excuse me for a moment, I need to go hunting. Tonight I dine on bunny soup.

I love a good debate as much as the next person, but when you debate you have to realize parties from various beliefs are going to contribute their thoughts and come up with the own arguments as to the validity/invalidity of the topic at hand.

If members here believe in Yahweh, God, Hades, etc and their Angels/Angelic beings, Heaven/Hell, etc. then you have to respect that. You have to allow both sides of the argument to be had, and not just debating one side. Otherwise, it's not a debate, it's soapbox. I don't like soapboxes because it goes against the purpose of this forum, which is open discussion of all beliefs in a civilized, respectful manner.

My question here would be why promise a paradise if all you going to do is make servants out of the souls who come there and why would it be a class-like system, some get the paradise, while others are no more then servants and in a borg like system? It doesn't seem like a real thing to me!!!

My only comment on this entire thread is this... if there is a creator who is going to use the souls as construction equipment in building something for him/herself why bother even telling the beings you've created that you exist? Because when you (the created being) die the creator(s) are going to do with you what they want whether you believe something is going to happen or not, you're not going to have any say in what happens to your soul once you die, you will be void of free will & you will become part of the pillar... should this proposal be true. What's the point of even going through all the subterfuge of creating beings? If you are that powerful, just create the pillar. Create something else where you don't have to bother with the entire life-death-rebirth cycle. If you believe you are just an energy source (like the Matrix & their human battery idea) and the thing that holds up the gods/creators/etc is the souls of humans then why bother telling them anything? Why bother with free will? Why bother with programming various human distinctions (looks, behaviors, etc), why not make them all the same? It would be far easier if that is the ultimate goal, to make them construction material. It seems if a being is powerful enough to orchestrate what exists on this planet, that they could orchestrate a far simpler system to build pillars.

The purpose of belief in a heaven & hell is the human conscious, do good things, good things happen, do bad things, bad things happen. Action/reaction. Cause/Effect.

The bare bones truth of the matter is that not one person on this Earth knows EXACTLY what is going to happen when you die. It's fun to talk about, debate, shoot the breeze, throw out some ideas, discuss ideologies/religions/spiritual beliefs... but, at the end of the day no one can guarantee you what will happen after you die. If humans were meant to know they would be designed that way, you would have absolute truth in what happens after death, but that's not the case, humans aren't meant to know, they are meant to DECIDE & BELIEVE, and have FAITH in their convictions.

creepyhollows wrote:My only comment on this entire thread is this... if there is a creator who is going to use the souls as construction equipment in building something for him/herself why bother even telling the beings you've created that you exist? Because when you (the created being) die the creator(s) are going to do with you what they want whether you believe something is going to happen or not, you're not going to have any say in what happens to your soul once you die, you will be void of free will & you will become part of the pillar... should this proposal be true. What's the point of even going through all the subterfuge of creating beings? If you are that powerful, just create the pillar. Create something else where you don't have to bother with the entire life-death-rebirth cycle. If you believe you are just an energy source (like the Matrix & their human battery idea) and the thing that holds up the gods/creators/etc is the souls of humans then why bother telling them anything? Why bother with free will? Why bother with programming various human distinctions (looks, behaviors, etc), why not make them all the same? It would be far easier if that is the ultimate goal, to make them construction material. It seems if a being is powerful enough to orchestrate what exists on this planet, that they could orchestrate a far simpler system to build pillars.

That's an interesting point. I wonder if it would follow the idea that Yahweh isn't actually the creator, and therefore needs to convince people he is in order to enact his plan. If he's all-powerful, why does he need to reclaim the souls he supposedly created and use them for fuel? Unless he's not as powerful as he claims.

As for the earlier issue in the thread...I can only say this: when the deity you were raised to trust wholeheartedly and put your faith in crushes the very living soul from your entire family until it lies like dust at your feet, and all pleas to stop are met with more disaster to the point you lose quite literally everything and everyone you ever had, and the people you thought were fellow believers turn on you with the accusation you must have "done something" to earn his wrath, there is very little reason to believe that deity was ever as kind as they claimed. I was so tired of the people trying to compare my life to the Biblical Job; at least Job caught a break at the end. Everything I've gained in my life since that darkest day, I've done without his help.

I'm forever reminded of this famous quote: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" --Epicurus

quintai wrote:
I was so tired of the people trying to compare my life to the Biblical Job; at least Job caught a break at the end. Everything I've gained in my life since that darkest day, I've done without his help.

I'm forever reminded of this famous quote: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" --Epicurus

Good quote.

Yes, the biblical Job. Most of us who had suffered trials while faithful to Yahweh must have felt like that at some point.

Perhaps it was Lucifer truly testing us (as it speaks of in Job), perhaps all those trials that felt like such an affront, a direct attack, were actually an attack from the dark side (with an ulterior motive), and Yahweh was unable to prevent it. I do not believe Yahweh is in any way omnipotent (in regards to your quote). I do believe he is a very powerful god, and a brother to Lucifer. Both are equally powerful in their own specialties and thus, such powerful opponents that a power struggle could endure for tens of thousands of years, or perhaps even longer than that.

Such a directed attack at a soul faithful to Yahweh in order to break them free of his grip is typical to how demons work - they work by force and the ends justify the means. If you have to go through sh*$ for a few years in order to be shaken awake, then it's worth it to them, they don't give it a second thought. Perhaps Lucifer looked at you, cared for your soul, lifted his finger, and thus began your years of torture until you were able to set yourself free and become responsible for yourself, and evolving.

You remove the protection when you break free, and you do everything on your own - in this way, you become a more realized human, no longer a baby depending on some omnipotent god who is not, but accepting the help of a god-like being who while not omnipotent, is willing to show you the way for yourself to become more than you are.

It actually relates in some way to Terror Misu's story that she brought up a few pages back,. Were those of us who specifically and consciously endured such excruciating trials while in the protection of Yahweh, being pummeled by Lucifer in order to help us wake up and break free, in some way, in essence, to set down a different path?

I'm forever reminded of this famous quote: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" --Epicurus

Personally, I believe this falls under Deism, which explains a lot for most people who believe in God, or a God(s), but don't understand the lack of action. :thumbup:

The prospect of death & what it truly brings beyond human expiration is both thrilling & chilling.

Such a directed attack at a soul faithful to Yahweh in order to break them free of his grip is typical to how demons work - they work by force and the ends justify the means. If you have to go through sh*$ for a few years in order to be shaken awake, then it's worth it to them, they don't give it a second thought. Perhaps Lucifer looked at you, cared for your soul, lifted his finger, and thus began your years of torture until you were able to set yourself free and become responsible for yourself, and evolving.

An excellent point, Adelphia. Although I have to admit, if I found out someone was indeed responsible for my parents both fading at the same time and, in my father's case, eventually dying, I don't care if they're human or an ancient deity--I don't think I could ever forgive them for that.

Yes, it did prove to be the means of my "escape" from a <self-edited>-up situation that occurred long before the tribulation started, and I did emerge from the ashes as it were and learned how to be a self-supporting, functioning human being for the first time in my life. But honestly, if I had known the cost, I would have tried to find another way. I can't help feeling like my parents paid too high a price for my liberation, and I don't understand why any deity would see fit to extract me from a dysfunctional family setting in one of the most brutal ways possible.

*sigh* I wish I was as spiritually attuned now as I was in my childhood. Maybe then I could just ask these deities myself as some of you are capable of. Anyway, I definitely appreciate all the constructive input in this thread; I guess it just touched a nerve with me.

Gabriel wrote:

Falicea272 wrote:

Gabriel wrote:I think ile have my shekels worth in this debate.Religion is a politics of a series of constructive arguments and events. Weather or not God Yahwey exists or not is the main question here.

Ask yourself this. If God Yahweh or whatever name you identify with him is does not exist then how come there`s angels djinns,gods and godesses and other spirits who created them. Even the fallen angels and spirits admit there is a God but dont serve his light any longer. Also there is many an ancient text out there at harvard and british museum and the like but really the answer does not lay within some manuscript or even the bible. it will always remain a question some choose to believe some do not that is free will. Also what is written down in some ancient text is not divine mandate or otherwise its clearly an interpretation that mankind have made. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion even me and I respect my own opinion and that of others.

I understand your point and is very well made except for the fact that the existence of any entity whether djinn, angels or other does not necessarily mean there is a creator being out there bringing them forth into existance. The same could be said about the Big Bang as the creating force in the Universe but it's existance does not explain the variety of life in this universe. Also, what makes you think that a djinn or angel knows more about God than we do? Just because we can't explain them fully does not mean they are more knowledgable than us. For all we know they are equally confused about what God is just like us humans but as one of djinn actually said to me once: "does it matter?"

You are entitled to your opinion and i respect that. Ile answer this without trying to score points. An angel does know more about God then we do as they are messengers of the same or were. All spirits come from somewhere so there is a creator that has brung them into existance same with the universe. Maintaining focus on the spiritual and not the scientific big bang theory as this is a spiritual forum. and yes it matters if it didnt then why answer my post. There is no confusion here everyone is entitled to what they believe is true.

Just because we can't explain (yet) where spirits, or everything in existence comes from does not mean that it automatically falls under the auspice of a creator entity, that is simply and Argument of Ignorance and equated to Intellectual Laziness. Note, Gabriel that if we as human beings are to grow and evolve we must delve deeply into both sides of an argument or debate to experience them without judgemnt so that we can thus grow or evolve without bias. Seeing only one side of the picture is not only myopic it is deminishing to any intellectual persuit.

It appears to me that you are someone who already has an opinion based solely on biased information and heresay. Did it ever ocurr to you that you may be mistaken on your belief or at the very least have incomplete information to base a coherent, solid argument to open up a debate? We have also considered here that our believes could be wrong as well, but also that it could be right or just a stepping stone to get to the next answer. For someone who has such conviction about who or what "God" is you sure are neither tolerant or willing to consider another point of view which makes you appear as an extremist, something we really don't have need of in this forum. Furthermore, Unbrideled sarcasm does nothing more than make you sound arrogant and desperate.