Demon keeping - what went wrong?

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Re: Demon keeping - what went wrong?

Postby Killa » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:55 pm

Selqet wrote:I have a pertinent question to add to this debate.

"Define LOVE." Love seldom means the same thing from human to human, let alone from species to species. A cat loves a bird or a mouse... to the death. I wouldn't call that love. But I can feel it, and it is. I loved my ex, Scott, even though loving him nearly destroyed us both. It's still love.

And... a second thought... is it possible for something BA to IMITATE what you believe to be love, for it's own tricky reasons?

Define Love, and tell me how you can be sure that what someone else is expressing to you, human, non-human, WA, DA, BA, is real?

I know... it's a personal issue.. but it's still relevant. Just saying.

Excellent thing to keep in mind when dealing with entity's that don't even think like humans.



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Re: Demon keeping - what went wrong?

Postby Terror » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:01 pm

Ash, I'm loving this discussion. So glad you're around these days to educate us!

ash-mda wrote:HIS SITUATION WAS FAR MORE COMPLEX THAN JUST THE BACK & FORTH ON THE FORUM.

IT WAS NEVER DECIDED WHETHER OR NOT THERE WERE "LEGIONS OF DEMONS" INVOLVED AT ALL. IT COULD HAVE BEEN ONE DEMON, OR NOT A DEMON AT ALL. I NEVER HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO FIND OUT BECAUSE THE MOMENT MAGNOLIA & I STARTED ASKING QUESTIONS FOR FURTHER CLARIFICATION WE WERE NEARLY LYNCHED FOR IT. PEOPLE ARE TOO QUICK TO JUMP ON THE DEMON WAGON WHEN THEY HEAR SOMEONE IS IN SERIOUS TROUBLE, AS OPPOSED TO TRYING TO ACTUALLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS WRONG. WHICH IS RIDICULOUS BECAUSE WE AREN'T IN THE MIDDLE OF A CATHOLIC CHURCH WORLD TAKE-OVER ANYMORE. TALK ABOUT THE LONG-ARM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THEY SET OUT TO DEMONIZE HUNDREDS OF IMMORTALS, ENTITIES, & BEINGS FROM ANY RELIGION THAT WAS NOT CATHOLIC. IT'S AMAZING HOW THAT STIGMA CONTINUES TO BOMBARD & OPPRESS THE PARANORMAL COMMUNITY. EVERYONE WANTS TO JUST JUMP TO "DEMON" EVERY TIME. HENCE THE "THE ANSWER CANNOT ALWAYS BE DEMONS" THREAD AWHILE AGO.

Ah yes, I remember that! You went by protocol and the person in question flipped out and got angry.

WITH DEMON KEEPING IT'S NOT A MATTER OF BALANCE. IF YOU HAVE A BA DEMON IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU DO, YOU'RE GOING TO BE DESTROYED. PERIOD. END OF STORY. NO ARGUMENTS. NO "BUT, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND...", OR "THINGS ARE DIFFERENT FOR ME...", OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF EXCUSE SOMEONE THINKS THEY CAN MAKE. IF YOU HAVE A BA DEMON IN YOUR HOME THEY ARE KEEPING YOU, YOU ARE NOT KEEPING THEM.

AS FOR DA DEMONS, I DON'T LIKE THAT TERMINOLOGY. IT'S MISLEADING. FOR THE REASONS YOU CAN READ IN TWO PARAGRAPHS UP. NO ONE THINKS OF A DEMON AS A HELPFUL ENTITY. NO ONE. STOP 5 RANDOM PEOPLE ON THE STREET & IF YOU CAN GET ONE PERSON TO ANSWER "YES" TO YOUR QUESTION "DO YOU THINK DEMONS CAN BE BENEFICIAL TO SOMEONE?" THEN YOU BETTER BUY A LOTTERY TICKET RIGHT AFTER, BECAUSE IT'S YOUR LUCKY DAY.


I totally get what you're saying. I can see "DA demon" being problematic. "BA demon" is very, very clear and frankly gives me the shivers.


I THINK IT'S BEEN LONG OVERDUE, AND I'VE BEEN PUSHING FOR ONLINE PARANORMAL COMMUNITY MEMBERS TO CATCH UP WITH OFFLINE PARANORMAL COMMUNITY MEMBERS, IN REAL CLASSIFICATION OF "DEMON" LABELED ENTITIES WHO ARE DARK ARTS & NOT BLACK ARTS. BUT, IT SEEMS EVERYONE IS ALL TO HAPPY TO KEEP SAYING "DEMON".



Would it be more accurate to say "infernals?" than "demons?" Were we not to use the verbiage "demon", would that be just semantics? It may seem obsequious but it's not, because knowing WHAT the entity is affects my decision-making in keeping.

ARE THERE ENTITIES THAT ARE BEING CALLED DEMONS WHO ARE DEMON-LIKE WHO ARE DARK ARTS? ABSOLUTELY. WHAT ARE THEY REALLY? YOU HAVE TO GO TO EACH, INDIVIDUAL PERSON OFFERING THEM TO FIND OUT. THAT IS THE FRUSTRATION OF EVERYONE INVOLVED.


:hissy:

AND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT EACH PRACTITIONER MAY CLASSIFY DARK ARTS & BLACK ARTS DIFFERENTLY. THEY MAY BE FAR MORE LENIENT IN THEIR CLASSIFICATION OF BLACK ARTS THAN WE ARE. AT CH WE CLASSIFY BLACK ARTS AS MAGICK & SPIRITS WHICH DISREGARD FREE WILL & INTENTIONALLY CAUSE HARM. TO SOME, THE DISREGARDING OF FREE WILL MAY NOT BE A BIG DEAL TO THEM, AND THEY MAY THINK THAT'S DARK ARTS. YOU NEED TO BE AWARE OF THAT.


The free will component speaks volumes to me. An infernal that exercises free will, an ability to discern between causing harm and not causing harm, can't be BA if we go by this definition.


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Re: Demon keeping - what went wrong?

Postby Terror » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:03 pm

Selqet wrote:And... a second thought... is it possible for something BA to IMITATE what you believe to be love, for it's own tricky reasons?



This is an excellent question.


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Re: Demon keeping - what went wrong?

Postby NyctophiliaRaven » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:07 pm

See... I have difficulty labeling certain beings as Infernals, too... for one simple reason.

Let's take... I dunno... Ashmedai. Babylonian/Assyrian deity of philosophy and mathematics. Bit of a sex cult in his day.

Now the Christians and the Hebrews call him a demon of lust.

He's considered by conjurers to be an Infernal.

But... he's NOT. He's a God, mislabeled by time and cultural shifts.

Infernal doesn't work for MOST of the Goetia, for that very reason... they're labeled as Goetic Demons/Infernals, but really, they're just Gods.

If Zeus and Loki aren't Infernals, why is Ashmedai. You can't tell me that Loki isn't every bit as dark as Ashmedai, and yet, Ashmedai is an Infernal and Loki is either tons of fun or a spoiled brat, depending on your personal perspective. WTF?

I agree with Ash - there's no correct terminology, there's no standard for labeling... and that's not a good thing...

But calling something an Infernal continues to assume things about that Entity that may, or may not be true. It's just as bad a word as Demon.


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Re: Demon keeping - what went wrong?

Postby Terror » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:10 pm

ash-mda wrote:EXACTLY, YOU'VE HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD.

THE TERM "DEMON" DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH LOVE, GOOD LUCK, SUPPORT, OR ANY OTHER HELPFUL DESCRIPTIVE WORD AT ALL. SO WHAT ARE THEY? SINCE WE DON'T OFFER DEMONS OURSELVES, ON ANY LEVEL OR CAPACITY, I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THOSE WHO ACTUALLY DO SUPPLY THEM TO WRITE THEIR OWN STANDARD OF CLASSIFICATION. BUT, IF THE ONLINE WON'T CATCH UP WITH THE OFFLINE CROWD, MAYBE WE SHOULD JUST POST THE GOINGS ON OF THE OFFLINE CROWD.


What's lacking is standardization in terminology, which is something that has to be defined for any profession... I think it's of utmost importance that at some point the paranormal community reaches a point of consensus (if it's ever possible, I don't know) where terms are standardized... it's sorta like what you and Mags did by naming a specific type of entity a "nympho" (i remember the thread on this) and how the word caught on and now other conjurers use it as a standard term.. and we, the consumers, recognize what it is... no matter which seller we go to... In order to get to some consensus on what might be defined as a "demon", one has to wade through layers of religion and that to me seems virtually impossible.

Just some thoughts... am I over-analyzing?


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Re: Demon keeping - what went wrong?

Postby -arianna- » Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:16 pm

Very interesting discussion and I am truly glad that you have the time to participate more in the forum Ash nowadays and we can have these discussions!

I wanted to add one more question to the list: I have read that there are demons who come from other realms besides the infernal realms (someone has a demon who comes from the earthen realm, that I remember). Have you come across such beings that could have been classified as demons from non infernal realms (I understand that this question may be impossible to answer since we don't have a clear definition of demon in this discussion asides from the BA ones)? Because if there are such beings that exist but are not BA then the term DA infernals wouldn't include them, so how would these be classified?

It would really be useful to know the offline classification of the different demonic entities, it would shed much light to many people's questions. This subject is always so tricky to discuss because we don't have the right terms to describe different things and entities so it evolves into a talk on semantics instead of what the point was to begin with.


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Re: Demon keeping - what went wrong?

Postby ASH-MDA » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:05 pm

NO, YOU'RE NOT OVER ANALYZING. THAT'S THE ISSUE. YOU HIT A RELIGIOUS BARRIER. BUT, THAT'S TRUE OF MANY ENTITIES & RELIGIONS. IN MOST RELIGIONS VAMPIRES, INCUBI, HELLHOUNDS, ETC ARE ALL DEMONIC. AND IN SOME TEXTS VAMPIRES & INCUBI/SUCCUBI ARE CALLED DEMONS.

MAGNOLIA & I DON'T TAKE RELIGIOUS RHETORIC INTO ACCOUNT. WE CLASSIFY ON MERIT ALONE, NOT RELIGIOUS CRITERIA. WE ALSO TRY TO KEEP A NEUTRAL MORAL GROUND.

Would it be more accurate to say "infernals?" than "demons?" Were we not to use the verbiage "demon", would that be just semantics? It may seem obsequious but it's not, because knowing WHAT the entity is affects my decision-making in keeping.


I THINK IT WOULD BE BETTER TO BE MORE SPECIFIC, BUT YOU STILL NEED TO BE MORE SPECIFIC THAN JUST "INFERNAL". THERE'S DEFINITELY A BETTER WAY TO GO ABOUT IT. NO MATTER WHAT YOU DECIDE TO CALL IT, YOU SHOULD KNOW WHAT YOU'RE KEEPING. NOT JUST WHAT YOU CALL IT, BUT WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS.

I wanted to add one more question to the list: I have read that there are demons who come from other realms besides the infernal realms (someone has a demon who comes from the earthen realm, that I remember). Have you come across such beings that could have been classified as demons from non infernal realms (I understand that this question may be impossible to answer since we don't have a clear definition of demon in this discussion asides from the BA ones)? Because if there are such beings that exist but are not BA then the term DA infernals wouldn't include them, so how would these be classified?


YES, ENTITIES FROM ALL 3 REALMS CLASSIFIED AS DEMONS HAVE COME INTO PLAY WITH THE ONLINE & OFFLINE COMMUNITIES. FOR A LONG TIME REDCAPS WERE SAID TO BE DEMONS OF THE EARTHEN REALM. THEY'RE NOT. ARE THEY ABSOLUTELY EVIL? YES. ARE THEY "DEMONIC" IN NATURE? YES. ARE THEY A DEMON? NO.

THERE ARE DEMONIC-TYPE ENTITIES ON ALL 3 REALMS & FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES OF ORIGIN. SO, YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO TAKE RELIGION OUT OF EQUATION COMPLETELY IN ORDER TO PROPERLY CLASSIFY THESE ENTITIES. BUT, WHAT HAPPENS IS, EVERYONE STARTS QUOTING THIS TEXT & THAT TEXT, OF RELIGIOUS SOURCE & OVERTONE, AND THEN PEOPLE START WANTING TO DEFEND THE FAITHS RATHER THAN STAYING ON TOPIC.


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Re: Demon keeping - what went wrong?

Postby -arianna- » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:34 pm

I see. The problem is that I don't have the knowledge or experience to even begin to classify such beings. For example, I work with faeries but I didn't know there were grape faeries until some of them dropped me a visit but now I know they exist, so I suppose there are faeries for other fruits and vegetables too. But this knowledge came because I actively work with fae so I recognize their energy and they're welcome in my house as long as they don't have bad intentions. With demonic entities the problem is that you can't say if something is safe to work with or not if you don't know what it is and you won't know what it is if you haven't work with it. So- unless conjurers that are experienced start providing more detailed info for such beings and their origins- the whole topic will remain vague and murky for many people.

Asking questions to the conjurer about the spirit or entity you're thinking of getting and expecting detailed answers is one thing, but there's no way of knowing if entity x from conjurer A is the same kind that entity y from conjurer B is unless you've worked with both. If there was more info available it would be easier to recognize similarities between the different seller's descriptions and maybe find that two conjurers call the same thing with a different name, or that entities that appeared to be the same thing are actually something completely different.

I don't know if I'm making any sense, the way I explained it!


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Re: Demon keeping - what went wrong?

Postby Noctua » Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:07 pm

I personally, consider anything claimed 'demonic' which is truly DA in nature, as infernal. I believe I was the first to pose that on the forum. And that's the best that can be done aside from each practitioner's individual explanation, as Ash points out.
It is a broad term, but we've not been able to work together to derive a more acute comprehension.

It is a frustrating thing, and as much that people throw around 'BA' loosely in the same context.. implying that BA can be equivalent to darker DA. That really muddles sh*t.
Nobody will ever agree on one terminology, maybe out of preference and the draw they know certain terms have..good for their image..as many are drawn into 'badassery'..lol..just by aesthetic value.
People want demons and Black Arts beings to bear an approachability, so they can be badass, and for the source contribute to great marketing. Just telling it like it is. We are naturally inclined to intrigue of extremes, but want the assurance that it won't bite us in the rear.

You play with DA on such a whim, out of frivolity, you stand good chance of getting burnt as well, there are those whom ignore that even when it's so clear from human interaction (humans are DA).



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Re: Demon keeping - what went wrong?

Postby Huffette » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:48 am

I remember the episode you are talking about. He seemed to turn on anyone who tried to help him. He even turned on Magnolia and Ash, who were trying to be patient with him and help him. He started spouting off and bring in someone else called Black Dragon and Brother Rahman.
He seemed to get more and more desperate every day.
The problem came when he just stopped listening to anyone and started yelling about no one wanting to help him in his crisis.
After yelling and screaming and begging for help, he changed paths and turned on his remaining spirits, then decided that he didn't want any one's help and turned his back on us all.
From what I remember, he showed us all what happens when you don't have clear rules for your spirits to follow. He ran along a path of allowing his spirits free reign, believing they would not turn on him, as BA spirits were proven to do.


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