I have some concerns

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Re: I have some concernsd

Postby quantumflux » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:51 am

I have seen you on a few occasions state that the system is only a few hundred years old. Do you have sources for this? Because I have yet to see any information that points to this truth. I’ve been doing research into the idea for the past couple days and have yet to find any sufficient information that supports it.

While it is true that by mastering boxing you cannot say that you are a master of karate I think we can both agree that regardless of your fighting style there is a proper way to throw a punch do to your bio mechanics. our arms, legs, hips, and core are ment so work in a spysific way due to the way our anatomy is structured.

Using the example of vibration
While it is true that I cannot say that the energy work in a western system is the same as something from an eastern tradition I can say that all energy is in a state of motion. By this I mean it is in a constant state of motion and change. I can say that the principle of vibration applies to key because the energy flows and changes. “Everything moves” and “everything vibrates” are two seperate statements.

I can also say that regardless of your belief systems that frequency applies.

fre·quen·cy
/ˈfrēkwənsē/Submit
noun
1.
the rate at which something occurs or is repeated over a particular period of time or in a given sample.

My mom smokes at a frequency of 1 pack per day

Make sense


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Re: I have some concernsd

Postby darkwing dook » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:12 am

Dasadon wrote:Verses 26 and 28

Polarity
Unwise vs. wise
“but he knows not one thing, what he shall answer,
if men shall put him to proof.”
Vs.
“Wise he is deemed who can question well,
and also answer back”

On one hand we have a person who does not have answers to give when put to the test

On the other hand we have a person who can not only give answers but ask questions of his own.

We can counter that with:
"Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding." -Proverbs 17:28 KJV

"Silence is the virtue of those who are not wise. Silence is wisdom and gets a man friends. Silence is wisdom when speaking is folly" -Proverbs, Maxims, and Phrases of All Ages, 1887

"Speech is either truth or falsehood, and silence is either realization or unattentiveness" -Al-Hujwiri

And one example of the problem with understanding polarity/duality: Are wise and foolish the polarity? Or are wise and unwise, thus similarly foolish and not foolish, the polarity?


Dasadon wrote: While it is true that by mastering boxing you cannot say that you are a master of karate I think we can both agree that regardless of your fighting style there is a proper way to throw a punch do to your bio mechanics. our arms, legs, hips, and core are ment so work in a spysific way due to the way our anatomy is structured.

Not necessarily. It depends on the type of punch, purpose, and target of punch.
Jab definitely has different mechanism from straight. Hook also requires additional adjustment in body mechanics.
If the purpose is feint or distraction, there's no need to use the ideal body mechanics to punch. On the other hand, if the purpose is to break bricks, woods, etc., it requires more pronounced mechanism.
Body blow is different from head blow. It's not wise to do body blow mechanism for head blow as it easily miss the target, thus exposing ourselves for the opponent's counter.
And there are other factors affecting the mechanics, you might want to talk to veteran boxers for that.

Another example is the roundhouse kick differences between karate/taekwondo and thai boxing.


Dasadon wrote: Using the example of vibration
While it is true that I cannot say that the energy work in a western system is the same as something from an eastern tradition I can say that all energy is in a state of motion. By this I mean it is in a constant state of motion and change. I can say that the principle of vibration applies to key because the energy flows and changes. “Everything moves” and “everything vibrates” are two seperate statements.

I can also say that regardless of your belief systems that frequency applies.

fre·quen·cy
/ˈfrēkwənsē/Submit
noun
1.
the rate at which something occurs or is repeated over a particular period of time or in a given sample.

My mom smokes at a frequency of 1 pack per day

Make sense

Movement is not equal to vibration, and vibration is not equal to frequency.
Vibration implies the periodic returning to equilibrium position. Movement is changes in position, and has broader definition, including moving to infinity, moving randomly, etc.
Vibration comprises frequency and amplitude. Frequency without amplitude is not vibration.


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Re: I have some concerns

Postby Jimy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:15 pm

I have been following this discussion and I have to say only one thing...

When I was 11 and became first interested in computers, I had none of my own. I could only use one at my friends home from time to time. I never read how computers were working internally. It was a black box. Yet, I would very soon know and understand how things internally would work, what operations it must do for specific outcomes, even when there are problems what must be causing it down to the way any internals work. I just would instinctively know it and I would be right, even if I could not explain to anyone the way technically it works at that time, or create things myself, as I can today, after I became a developer.

Sometimes it is enough, to not know the internals (speak: be able to explain them, be able to know how exactly things are wired and son on) and yet understand that something is working a specific way. In the spiritual and magick world it is the same, imho. And as such, there are those, who do things just "like that" and those who must learn and practice everything in detail to be able to do it, and many in between those two extreme states.

There is one truth for each of us maybe, but there isn't just one truth for all of us together, but many truths, and they can be (almost) all valid.


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Re: I have some concernsd

Postby Charles_Odinforce » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:30 pm

Dasadon wrote:I have seen you on a few occasions state that the system is only a few hundred years old. Do you have sources for this? Because I have yet to see any information that points to this truth. I’ve been doing research into the idea for the past couple days and have yet to find any sufficient information that supports it.


While other traditional forms of Hermeticism do predate the Kybalion most of what we're arguing comes directly from that. Its publication date is 1912, so just over 100 years old. This is where most of the modern traditions of Hermeticism within magick start to come from, including Crowley's work, and large amounts of The Golden Dawn's work. These texts may pull from earlier texts but that hardly implies that the oldest methods used what the new do. I take the same issues with Thorrson's/Flower's work in Norse Mysticism so don't feel bad. Now if you are excluding the more modern texts from your understanding I'll beg your pardon on that but also ask you to reference your works for each core idea as I'm more familiar with the Kybalion than those older works (as are most readers, as are most authors in the occult). More often than not a modern practitioner will use works referencing older texts to imply validity of a modern method, when the older method was vastly different.

While it is true that by mastering boxing you cannot say that you are a master of karate I think we can both agree that regardless of your fighting style there is a proper way to throw a punch do to your bio mechanics. our arms, legs, hips, and core are ment so work in a spysific way due to the way our anatomy is structured.


Actually, no there isn't. There are many improper ways to throw a punch, but there are many, many, many more proper ones based on a combination of the gear you are wearing, the point you are hitting, the conditioning of your hands, tactical advantages and disadvantages, and numerous other things. I myself use a multitude of different types of jabs because I have shorter arms, but then I also have many variations of the hook and uppercut that I use to compensate. Likewise how I throw a punch with or without gloves changes subtly as the risk to reward ratio for delivering my most powerful punch goes up. It would be the height of dishonoring the martial arts if I were to say "there is a proper way to throw a punch" just on biomechanical efficiency. Now, I can say every punch can be improved up to a certain point. Take a look at the difference between Foreman's early career, and then his latter career as he used something called a "Telephone Poll Jab." Compare that to Dempy's "falling jab" and then that against Wing Tsun's falling Side strike jab, compare those against traditional Wing Chun's straight punches, Karate's fast strike, then compare against Hungar's rotational extended strikes.

Each has a use. To start to claim for instance that Karate has an inferior punch is to remove to not understand the whole of Karate and the role that certain punches play in it. It's to forget that the method had to come from somewhere. For Karate Reference I use Go Ryuju or older Okinawan styles for reference.

Using the example of vibration
While it is true that I cannot say that the energy work in a western system is the same as something from an eastern tradition I can say that all energy is in a state of motion. By this I mean it is in a constant state of motion and change. I can say that the principle of vibration applies to key because the energy flows and changes. “Everything moves” and “everything vibrates” are two seperate statements.


You can say it within your system. Let me reiterate once more, you are borrowing - and butchering - a science term in hopes to prove your point. Vibration isn't a magic word that makes your system right and all other systems wrong. It doesn't mean that those principles suddenly apply in other systems. It may be so FOR YOU, but traditional practitioners of those systems would laugh you out in a heartbeat. Likewise, many of those systems, especially those focusing on Qi, create physical results that are hard to disprove yet require certain physical applications. No amount of mentalism, or vibration, to date has produced a strong QiGong practitioner without the practice of QiGong. We are nearing the point where I bow out though, not because I feel I am wrong, but because we have covered this ground a dozen times now.

You are very much stuck in YOUR system and view. This means that to you "my way is right, and all others are wrong" or at least that is what you present. You have to allow for systems working without any context of your system if you want to reach people, especially with as varied an audience as you will find here. Now if you want to post non-stop threads on Hermetic Principles feel free, heck I will applaud your efforts! If you start saying it's the core of all other systems, or it fits into all systems I will continue to stand as your staunch opposition in this. We have lost more Old Magick to practitioners who want to butcher and chop up systems and then identify them under their own headings. I'll do the same if you start saying "Odin is Jupiter and Thor is Mars" though as well.

Rome tried to and nearly did, destroy the identification of the Norse Gods as unique entities who are more living beings and less as headings under the Roman concept of God Forces. I see this as no different.

I can also say that regardless of your belief systems that frequency applies.

fre·quen·cy
/ˈfrēkwənsē/Submit
noun
1.
the rate at which something occurs or is repeated over a particular period of time or in a given sample.

My mom smokes at a frequency of 1 pack per day

Make sense


I said I'd be bowing out soon, so here is the final straw so you know. You are now mincing words. I have no time for mincing words to score a technical victory using appropriated terminology from science. Simply no time for it. You know the use of the term frequency in the context discussed, you used a secondary definition outside the discussion, that doesn't win you a point, it just shows you are argumentative.


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Re: I have some concerns

Postby quantumflux » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:38 pm

When did I claim that my system is right and every one else’s systems were wrong? All I stated was that the principles apply.


I would appreciate if you didn’t put words in my mouth

If you don’t like my definition of frequency can you provide a better one?

I’m not saying the principles them selves are the root. I’m saying that the root is the meaning behind them.

Let me use a better example for bio mechanics.
I practace HEMA(historical European martial arts)
When in stance our knees need to be above the feet. If you move them to the insides of your feet you risk doing damage to the knee. It puts a lot of stress on the joint because it wasn’t designed to work that way.

Darkwing. The verses I posted are still polarized against each other. Stating more verses doesn’t change that. But if you want to think that it does...

Yes I am using a scientific definition for frequency. I don’t exactly see another definition for the word lying around. I speak English. I got that from a dictionary. I don’t much like taking words like this out of context of entended meaning.

I never said that vibration And movement were the same. I even went as far as to point out that they were two separate statements within the principal.vibration and motion are not the same thing but the principle covers both.
Yes a vibration has an amplatude but it also has a frequency.

Again I agree that these principles are not necessary in order to understand these subjects but I think they are the best way to convey information on a forum like this.

Yes I am being argumentative I fully understand that but I’m just trying to defend my points. I’m just defending my statements. I don’t personally see anything wrong with that but if you do you’re free to unsubscribe.
I stated from the beginning that not all of you would agree with me. I’m fine with that. But I still feel the need to defend myself. Perhaps it’s not the wisest action to take but even so it is what it is.


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Re: I have some concerns

Postby Lewk » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:44 pm

I wanted to say in my earlier post that I have enjoyed reading the flow of this discussion and learned a few things.

My own viewpoint on belief systems is influenced by Robert Anton Wilson's maxim that I read in one of his books. It seems to closely parallel some modern scientific philosophy on knowledge - about how theories or belief systems / world views can ever only be approximate versions of reality. The maxim as I remember it is: never completely believe anyone else's belief system and never completely believe your own belief system. Yes, for one thing we perhaps need to be open to incorporating new information and not allow our world view to become stagnant or inaccurate...but the twist from RAW's point of view was that the Universe is aware of what we believe about it and tends to arrange events so that they support our world view.

I try not to be too dogmatic about 'believing' this :)

To me this provides a natural mechanism by which some Christians can see miraculous synchronicities that 'prove' to them that their god is real, while those of a competing faith can have the same experience. Basically from one point of view any belief system has some validity *and* the Universe tends to be supportive of / works with whatever your view of it is.

I guess this is one aspect of the mechanisms at work in what many call the Law of Attraction.

My own, limited, knowledge of Hermeticism comes from Franz Bardon's 1956 book Initiation into Hermetics, which first came into my possession in 1972. It doesn't seem to follow the tenets of the Kybalion in any obvious way. But Franz Bardon wasn't thought to have come from a known school of hermetic thinking.



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Re: I have some concerns

Postby quantumflux » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:57 pm

That’s a good point leak. I tend to think it’s more along the lines of the subcontious mind doing this though and not the universe. Regaurdless of how you view it Lewk I think your right.

Personally I believe this phenomenon can all be explained scientifically. I always apply the scientific method to my practice And I think more people should do the same.


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Re: I have some concerns

Postby darkwing dook » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:08 pm

Dasadon wrote:Let me use a better example for bio mechanics.
I practace HEMA(historical European martial arts)
When in stance our knees need to be above the feet. If you move them to the insides of your feet you risk doing damage to the knee. It puts a lot of stress on the joint because it wasn’t designed to work that way.

Yes, the knees are important. But it's not exactly that the knee should be over the foot, but that the knee should point to the same way as the foot. We can see this in karate's sanchin kata.
And also, leg conditioning is important to strengthen the muscles and joints. In real time application, there are times when the knee is bent inside or outside, for example when the opponent use low kick to the thigh or knee. If we only strictly adhere to practice of knee over/ point to the same way as the foot, without conditioning for the possibility of getting bent, it is quite dangerous.


Dasadon wrote:Darkwing. The verses I posted are still polarized against each other. Stating more verses doesn’t change that. But if you want to think that it does...

No, those other verses are to counter what you take on unwise vs wise, where one don't answer while another has answer and can question. Those other verses said whether one remains silent (e.g. not answering) or talks (e.g. answering and questioning), it is not a measure of whether he/she is wise or not.

And the question of the polarity remains: Is wise vs unwise polarity? Or is wise vs foolish the real polarity? Because unwise is not always the same as foolish. Or to use another example, is hot vs cold polarity? How about hot vs not hot, or cold vs not cold? What is room temperature polarity with?


Dasadon wrote:I never said that vibration And movement were the same. I even went as far as to point out that they were two separate statements within the principal.vibration and motion are not the same thing but the principle covers both.
Yes a vibration has an amplatude but it also has a frequency.

In that case, considering the definition of motion or movement is broader and includes vibration, the principle should not be named "principle of vibration", but "principle of motion".

Secondly, Kybalion was written using the understanding of science in early 1900s. This can be problematic in two ways. One way, there are already many advancement in science. If you do follow science, you should compare which one is and which is not applicable with Kybalion's explanation, and how its understanding should be revised for you personally.
The other way, Kybalion is based on Hermeticism, which is based on Hermetism. Thus, for example when it said "vibration", there's no guarantee that Hermeticism and Hermetism also talk about the same thing with Kybalion. I believe this is one of Charles' arguments. What if vibration in Kybalion is just an modernized analogy to explain underlying phenomenon, not a direct explanation of the phenomenon itself? For this, you need to research the older versions of the teaching, find what they said about vibration or similar phenomenon.



Dasadon wrote:Again I agree that these principles are not necessary in order to understand these subjects but I think they are the best way to convey information on a forum like this.

It is good, and it may be beneficial for some people. But other practitioners have different understanding of how it works. And considering CH hasn't brought up the Hermetic principles in their writings, it is quite likely that their practice is not fully based on or does not emphasize those principles. As long as you remember this:
Since we do not push one ideology here we request that members do not do it either.
topic20963.html
there shouldn't be a problem : )


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Re: I have some concerns

Postby quantumflux » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:45 pm

I’m not pushing one ideology.
I do not strictly follow the Kabbalah. I much prefer the older texts. Although I call my self a hermetist those teachings make up a small portion of my practace.

Yes hot and cold are seperate piles. Room tempiture is in the grey zone. Hot and cold are the same thing.

“Everything is dual; Everything has poles; Everything has its pair of opposites; Like and unlike are the same; Opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; Extremes meet; All truths, are but half-truths; All paradoxes may be reconciled”
Read this very carefully


CH might not use these principles specifically but they still apply. for example the white, dark, and black arts scale is polarity.

I was using that ideology as an example because it’s what I’m familiar with as far as a logical example goes. I’m not using it because I think that people need to study this system. I’m using it because it’s logical. It’s easy to use logic here on a forum like this.

I don’t think that people just need examples on how to do things. They need explanations on how they work. Knowing a thing is very important in my opinion.


When I say that the knee should be over the foot I’m not referring to the knee being too far forward or back. I am referring specifically to the knee collapsing to the inside towards the body. This is dangerous for the knee because it puts strain on the joint


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Re: I have some concerns

Postby quantumflux » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:14 pm

May I ask what your practices consist of? As far as magIck goes.


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