nakedmoviestar wrote:I'm no Christian, but just a quick search brought up Revelation 21:8 (NIV) which states that anyone who practices the "magical arts" will be condemned to the "second death" which translates to eternal death. But nothing specifically about DA spirits but I'm assuming to a Christian, "magical arts" would apply to this.

As would Old Testament terms witchcraft, familiar spirits, necromancy and divination. But I would tend to agree it depends on the denomination. Like Magnolia, I think some self-reflection on the subject on the part of the individual is the best advice to determine whether or not you should be a Keeper.

After all, anyone posting here (barring channeled responses) is still alive and does not have a definitive answer on the subject.

From a scholarly vantage point, there is also a question as to how these subjects in the Bible should be translated or applied to modern society, but that's a subject best discussed elsewhere (and already discussed in multiple threads like Magnolia stated).

nakedmoviestar wrote:I'm no Christian, but just a quick search brought up Revelation 21:8 (NIV) which states that anyone who practices the "magical arts" will be condemned to the "second death" which translates to eternal death. But nothing specifically about DA spirits but I'm assuming to a Christian, "magical arts" would apply to this.

Hmmm... leaving aside the issue of different wordings of different translations from different versions of parts of the bible...just looking at the King James version which is in English...here is the verse:

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

Basically to me this verse does not set out definitions. The reader has to imagine what they think the author means exactly. I don't see it as condemning *all* magic and spirit work.

To me this verse is a kind of rant against wrongdoers - and 'sorcerers' and 'idolaters' are included. I think this verse is speaking to people who may think worship of some spirits is good (eg angels perhaps) and 'idolaters' refers to those who worship spirits that are disapproved of by the community who are reading the text. I note that this verse does not list *which* spirits count as idols.

The same goes for the use of the word 'sorceror'. At times in history people that were approved of by a community, who practiced 'good' magic or healing or prayers, might have a nice label given to them - like magician or healer or miracle worker or holy person. And people disapproved of by the author, or the community who would be reading their work, might be called something disparaging....like sorceror.

There is no phrase here that says "anyone who practices any form of magic" or "anyone who contacts any spirits" are doomed. It would have been easy for the author to write such a phrase if they had wanted to.

And there's no list of precisely what counts as sorcery or idolatry and what doesn't.

In Old Testament Leviticus there are lists on right practice and a long list of precisely what is outlawed. The Revelations verse above is not that kind of thing, it seems to me. It's almost saying "you know all those people we disapprove of? They'll meet a sticky end".

So personally I would really hesitate to treat that vaguely worded Revelations verse 21:8 as meaning that all magic or spirit contact leads to the 'second death'.

That hasn't stopped bigots and persecutors across the centuries feeling enabled this verse to do wrong to others themselves.

enabled *by* this verse to do wrong to others themselves.

Lewk wrote:

nakedmoviestar wrote:I'm no Christian, but just a quick search brought up Revelation 21:8 (NIV) which states that anyone who practices the "magical arts" will be condemned to the "second death" which translates to eternal death. But nothing specifically about DA spirits but I'm assuming to a Christian, "magical arts" would apply to this.

Hmmm... leaving aside the issue of different wordings of different translations from different versions of parts of the bible...just looking at the King James version which is in English...here is the verse:

Revelation 21:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV

Basically to me this verse does not set out definitions. The reader has to imagine what they think the author means exactly. I don't see it as condemning *all* magic and spirit work.

To me this verse is a kind of rant against wrongdoers - and 'sorcerers' and 'idolaters' are included. I think this verse is speaking to people who may think worship of some spirits is good (eg angels perhaps) and 'idolaters' refers to those who worship spirits that are disapproved of by the community who are reading the text. I note that this verse does not list *which* spirits count as idols.

The same goes for the use of the word 'sorceror'. At times in history people that were approved of by a community, who practiced 'good' magic or healing or prayers, might have a nice label given to them - like magician or healer or miracle worker or holy person. And people disapproved of by the author, or the community who would be reading their work, might be called something disparaging....like sorceror.

There is no phrase here that says "anyone who practices any form of magic" or "anyone who contacts any spirits" are doomed. It would have been easy for the author to write such a phrase if they had wanted to.

And there's no list of precisely what counts as sorcery or idolatry and what doesn't.

In Old Testament Leviticus there are lists on right practice and a long list of precisely what is outlawed. The Revelations verse above is not that kind of thing, it seems to me. It's almost saying "you know all those people we disapprove of? They'll meet a sticky end".

So personally I would really hesitate to treat that vaguely worded Revelations verse 21:8 as meaning that all magic or spirit contact leads to the 'second death'.

That hasn't stopped bigots and persecutors across the centuries feeling enabled this verse to do wrong to others themselves.

Well this verse is simply explaining that anyone who is not part of the "Christian church", in the END TIMES, which includes liars, cowards, idolators, sorcerers-- which translates to Witchcraft in the Greek, will essentially be snuffed out, lol.

Deuteronomy 18:9 thru 12 essentially expands on this to include, Mediums and spiritists who contact the dead and also those who engage in witchcraft and cast spells. It goes on to say that anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord.
That's pretty clear, imo. This condemnation is consistent throughout the bible.

I'm not a Christian but I can attest to the fact that each and everyone of them who found out I was a magician let me know that I was destined to spend eternity in HELL, lol. It never gets old...

No. Your afterlife will not be condemned by spirit keeping.

Some responses from Christianity-based practitioners:
https://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2015/07/ ... aw-magick/
https://www.newdawnmagazine.com/article ... ard-smoley

darkwing dook wrote:Some responses from Christianity-based practitioners:
https://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2015/07/ ... aw-magick/
https://www.newdawnmagazine.com/article ... ard-smoley

Interesting articles.... The priestly cast was allowed to practice magick, but of course, the Christian plebs were forbidden the practice. Must not give the "common folk" the tools to change their lives for the better.... just trust the priestly class.... they know what's best for you, lol.

darkwing dook wrote:Some responses from Christianity-based practitioners:
https://www.llewellyn.com/blog/2015/07/ ... aw-magick/
https://www.newdawnmagazine.com/article ... ard-smoley

I like the first article. It's very thoughtful. I think it also goes neatly to one of my points.

When Moses or Aaron did magic because Yahweh gave them the power, to the Bible they were holy men. But when someone in the Bible did magic and was in a competitor spiritual group or got their power from a different deity, they were sorcerors. (Or whatever the disparaging word was that was being used at the time.)

Of course this viewpoint reflects my perspective and beliefs, which are that successive generations of human beings have interfered with people's freedom of belief, since the dawn of history and probably well before. I was born into a strict orthodox Catholic family and was an altar boy for some years but I have been following my own path since my teens. (A non-monotheistic one.)

Without wishing or intending to be offensive to those who believe differently, for me the humans who wrote scripture like the Bible have incorporated into their writing their own culturally inherited prejudices against anyone who follows a different spiritual path to theirs.

nakedmoviestar wrote:The priestly cast was allowed to practice magick, but of course, the Christian plebs were forbidden the practice. Must not give the "common folk" the tools to change their lives for the better.... just trust the priestly class.... they know what's best for you, lol.

To be fair, science nowadays is kinda the same. Trust the approved scientists, ignore or purge scientists who don't fall in line.

Lewk wrote: When Moses or Aaron did magic because Yahweh gave them the power, to the Bible they were holy men. But when someone in the Bible did magic and was in a competitor spiritual group or got their power from a different deity, they were sorcerors. (Or whatever the disparaging word was that was being used at the time.)

Another example is the three magi (or twelve in other tradition), finding Jesus via astrology etc.

darkwing dook wrote:

nakedmoviestar wrote:The priestly cast was allowed to practice magick, but of course, the Christian plebs were forbidden the practice. Must not give the "common folk" the tools to change their lives for the better.... just trust the priestly class.... they know what's best for you, lol.

To be fair, science nowadays is kinda the same. Trust the approved scientists, ignore or purge scientists who don't fall in line.

Lewk wrote: When Moses or Aaron did magic because Yahweh gave them the power, to the Bible they were holy men. But when someone in the Bible did magic and was in a competitor spiritual group or got their power from a different deity, they were sorcerors. (Or whatever the disparaging word was that was being used at the time.)

Another example is the three magi (or twelve in other tradition), finding Jesus via astrology etc.

A lot of people or groups in power do that.

They'll preach on thing to the public but either do the opposite in private or give some excuse justifying their breaking of whatever rule.

Say group presents itself as pro vegan and says everyone must give up meat and are seen eating meat.

They might say that "x" animal deity commanded them to eat, they talked with their spirit animals, etc etc.

Any justification they need so everyone else won't realize it's a double standard which is exactly what it is.