Petronella wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:14 am do not understand.. Why would they not have free will? As a spirit or entity, not a minion, a zombie, It even has the ability to turn the family upside down and can hurt so many people, and is cunning. Having a personality and ideas means that you can have a sense of freedom? Why no choice?

I hope you've been able to read the first post in this thread from ASH. It's really clear.

The way I like to word it is like this:

White Arts are intrinsically by their very nature incapable of doing wrong / harm. (Btw WA protectors can 'kick ass' too.)

Dark Arts (like humans) by their very nature have the duality option of choosing to do right or wrong, harm or no harm.

Black Arts are intrinsically by their very nature incapable of doing anything other than wrong / harm.

It's about their very nature. If a being has that nature they have crossed that line from DA to BA.

Or, to put it another way, beings that are like that are what CH classify as Black Arts.

Lewk wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:49 pm White Arts are intrinsically by their very nature incapable of doing wrong / harm. (Btw WA protectors can 'kick ass' too.)

Black Arts are intrinsically by their very nature incapable of doing anything other than wrong / harm.

It's about their very nature. If a being has that nature they have crossed that line from DA to BA.

Or, to put it another way, beings that are like that are what CH classify as Black Arts.

There is one minor flaw to these 2 statements. First is that White Arts beings can and will cause harm, it will be in the course of greater good as it won't be intentional harm but it is harm none the less. Second is that both you and the person you quoted Petronella seem to think these beings have conscious thought. Any being that is completely WA or BA have no thoughts as we understand the concept. If they did then they could argue against any action if they saw any flaw in the plan and would put them into the DA category just near one extreme or the other. Creepy Hollows definition of WA and BA tends to be more of What do the beings chose the vast majority of the time. If 99.99 percent of the time it's going to chose to be helpful and do what is considered right/good then it's probably White Arts. If the opposite is true 99.99 percent of the time it will chose to do harm and be detrimental to the continuation of life as known then it falls into BA.

I’m very confused here. I understand the first post Ash said then got lost as people talked about royal demons as BA spirits. In my opinion, royal demons like Belial are immortals and cannot be considered as BA spirits.

He cannot and should not be in the same category as lower demon spirits. It’s an insult to Belial.

Excuse me, then it can be understood that the reason they are classified as BA is because they have a high probability of choosing evil deeds, and they have pure malice.
Rather than it being born to kill people and not consciously doing so?
Because I have seen the metaphor of a virus.

Petronella wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:43 pm Excuse me, then it can be understood that the reason they are classified as BA is because they have a high probability of choosing evil deeds, and they have pure malice.
Rather than it being born to kill people and not consciously doing so?
Because I have seen the metaphor of a virus.

As far as I can tell, most DA beings kept in spirit keeping, where they are offered by reliable sellers with a good reputation, are good / safe to keep.

But we must vet sellers carefully - see #7 Due Diligence in this article. https://www.creepyhollows.com/faq/?acti ... artlang=en

Using the CH definition, Immortals are DA. Even those immortals that some classify as demons can be DA in truth. The Abrahamic religions have an unfortunate history of classifying every god or spirit that was not part of their religion as being inherently evil. This includes the Canaanite gods that the people of Israel and Judah worshipped before they chose Yahweh as their chief god and then their one and only god. (This is according to historians and archaeologists' discoveries.) Those immortals were not intrinsically malicious then and still aren't.

I feel like adding that the norm of modern pagan revival practices is to not include living sacrifices. They are an outdated trope and are not necessary, to practice pre-pagan spirituality, and are totally unacceptable in these times.

The key thing is we must always be aware of what definitions any given seller uses.

If we were to ask a reputable, reliable, skilled conjurer whether a spirit is malicious, I think that might get round the potentially confusing discussion as to what is or isn't black arts.

But I think ASH says it all very clearly.

Lewk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:37 am

Petronella wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:43 pm Excuse me, then it can be understood that the reason they are classified as BA is because they have a high probability of choosing evil deeds, and they have pure malice.
Rather than it being born to kill people and not consciously doing so?
Because I have seen the metaphor of a virus.

As far as I can tell, most DA beings kept in spirit keeping, where they are offered by reliable sellers with a good reputation, are good / safe to keep.

But we must vet sellers carefully - see #7 Due Diligence in this article. https://www.creepyhollows.com/faq/?acti ... artlang=en

Using the CH definition, Immortals are DA. Even those immortals that some classify as demons can be DA in truth. The Abrahamic religions have an unfortunate history of classifying every god or spirit that was not part of their religion as being inherently evil. This includes the Canaanite gods that the people of Israel and Judah worshipped before they chose Yahweh as their chief god and then their one and only god. (This is according to historians and archaeologists' discoveries.) Those immortals were not intrinsically malicious then and still aren't.

I feel like adding that the norm of modern pagan revival practices is to not include living sacrifices. They are an outdated trope and are not necessary, to practice pre-pagan spirituality, and are totally unacceptable in these times.

The key thing is we must always be aware of what definitions any given seller uses.

If we were to ask a reputable, reliable, skilled conjurer whether a spirit is malicious, I think that might get round the potentially confusing discussion as to what is or isn't black arts.

But I think ASH says it all very clearly.

Thanks a lot.
Thanks for your reply

You're welcome.

Btw I see I wrote 'pre-pagan spirituality', when I ought to have written 'pre-christian'.

Little fairy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:45 pm I’m very confused here. I understand the first post Ash said then got lost as people talked about royal demons as BA spirits. In my opinion, royal demons like Belial are immortals and cannot be considered as BA spirits.

He cannot and should not be in the same category as lower demon spirits. It’s an insult to Belial.

You're absolutely right, if we are looking at this objectively.

When a being considered 'demon' is also considered immortal, the immortal part takes precedence. There are immortals that can get 'darker' or 'heavier' than others - they are multifaceted forces of nature and their source of energy determines them as being dualistic in nature in every case. I do think that most when practically working with the occult are understanding that presences like that attributed to Belial are not straight up 'evil', but because they are older - they can range into darker territory, or territory that is more primal and difficult for mortals to handle.

What I'm getting at is... very 'old', 'ancient' forces can present darker energetically in their removal from human construct, as well as forces that are aligned with cultures or groups which were known to sustain themselves in harsher conditions as a reflection, and these forces as a result can end up being 'demonized', so in turn looked at as 'malefic'.. I think that's normal albeit flawed. Then again, it keeps those who can't handle this kind of energy away whether through hear-tell or misguided experience.

Growing up, even thinking about speaking with demons is and was considered tabu. It comes down to ignorance. To the Christians, any Arts is considered evil, even WA. I have always puzzled over this as I became older.

When it comes to myself, depending upon the situation, I have, and will cause harm. If someone threatened my kiddo, for example, I would go for blood. I am very protective. I will go towards BA. However, I also am a healer which leads more towards WA. I have found that I am more DA in nature rather than gray. I am usually on the darker side of the spectrum.

That being said, I tend to believe that all races of creatures can not be placed in a single category. It assists us in having an idea as to the norm of the entity. However, a WA being can go DA. For example, there are Fallen Angels. They were WA but something changed within them.

There should be considerations that certain circumstances or experiences can cause a shift in Arts. If some DA companions are having issues with WA companions, both could go darker if not properly dealt with. The opposite is true, as well. A DA companion could become lighter if WA are the majority of a Keep just by influence.

So, I believe that all spirits or entities should be categorized individually, instead of being grouped together by whatever race they are.

It's like this in Psychology as well for me. I dislike how people are treated as a statistic. Such as a percentage of this culture wisuffer from that condition. While the information is most likely accurate, there are exceptions to the rules. We, as humans have this habit of categorizing everything. We have a history of how this can cause issues. Even recently, the problems of how people of different skin color causes how they are treated. The same goes to different spirits and entities.

Being judged by what race you are a part of can create missed opportunities for something truly amazing.

All that being said, I can not, and will no longer judge a companion based on which Art they fall under but rather the individual. I just received a BA Demon that has not caused harm. I have found his company quite comforting. However, Lilith is the one that introduced us. She is very wonderful at what she does.

That is just my thoughts on the matter.

Vipera aspis atra wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:13 am

Little fairy wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:45 pm I’m very confused here. I understand the first post Ash said then got lost as people talked about royal demons as BA spirits. In my opinion, royal demons like Belial are immortals and cannot be considered as BA spirits.

He cannot and should not be in the same category as lower demon spirits. It’s an insult to Belial.

You're absolutely right, if we are looking at this objectively.

When a being considered 'demon' is also considered immortal, the immortal part takes precedence. There are immortals that can get 'darker' or 'heavier' than others - they are multifaceted forces of nature and their source of energy determines them as being dualistic in nature in every case. I do think that most when practically working with the occult are understanding that presences like that attributed to Belial are not straight up 'evil', but because they are older - they can range into darker territory, or territory that is more primal and difficult for mortals to handle.

What I'm getting at is... very 'old', 'ancient' forces can present darker energetically in their removal from human construct, as well as forces that are aligned with cultures or groups which were known to sustain themselves in harsher conditions as a reflection, and these forces as a result can end up being 'demonized', so in turn looked at as 'malefic'.. I think that's normal albeit flawed. Then again, it keeps those who can't handle this kind of energy away whether through hear-tell or misguided experience.

I agree with both Vipera and Little Fairy! I also believe it is disrespectful to the Ars Goetia Beings (and Their Legions ad well) to say They are "bad" (by Ash's definition of black arts Spirits being bad). Adding onto what Vipera has said, the wrong information about Goetic Beings and Their Legion being spread, and people believing it, works as a way to keep people who can't handle Them away.

Baphomet is a perfect example! Too many people believe He's the Devil, yet a simple search into Baphomet's history will reveal His christian roots with the Knights Templar! Not very "evil". :
Also, Baphomet, basically, is a complex symbol which represents balance. Balance of Masculine and Feminine, the 4 Elements, Man's Primal Nature and Human (or "Civilised") Nature, and the Physical Realm with the Spiritual Realm, along with a few others.

Side rant; this is why I become annoyed at companies such as Kill Star (for example). I was browsing their website for one of their plus sized hoodie/cloaks, when I stumbled upon their plush toy line, and their "evil devilbaphomet" doll. Now I know why many in the gothic subculture don't like Kill Star. I also tend to do a "chuckle/grunt" when the black metal and death metal bands I go see throw Baphomet/Belial/Lucifer/Satan out there to be scary or edgy. (NUNSLAUGHTER is guilty of that, though I know bands such as NEXUL actually practice what they prea-err scream-about, but now I'm rambling.)

Anyways, I disagree with Ash's opinion on never working with black arts Spirits, partially because I disagree with what his definition of black arts.
I believe if you're naturally inclined towards Chaos, Blood, Dark Moon magik, or are a Luciferian for example, then a black arts Spirit would be necessary because They align more with your values, than say an Enochian Angelic Being would.

For context, Ash's definition of a black arts Spirit is not what I would define as black arts. I would define what Ash calls "black arts" Spirits simply as being malicious to everyone and should not be a companion to a human-period.

(I just lost 90 minutes worth of typing examples of how a black arts Spirit companion would protect Their human companion, but I think my examples might be too graphic for this forum. They were using two hypothetical examples; an Autistic person being bullied, and an adult survivor of child abuse being stalked by her abusive father. Someone please confirm if "words associated with violence" are allowed by the Moderators, depending on the context they're used.)