Falicea272 wrote:

Adelphia wrote:No edit button. Here are a few books on the use of bible in magickal traditions:

Qabbalistic Magic: Talismans, Psalms, Amulets, and the Practice of High Ritual
http://www.amazon.com/Qabbalistic-Magic ... 1594773580

and

BIBLE SPELLS: Obtain Your Every Desire By Activating The Secret Meaning of Hundreds of Biblical Verses
http://www.amazon.com/BIBLE-SPELLS-Acti ... ble+spells

and of course, the 6th and 7th Books of Moses.

Thanks for the link, however these examples only serve to prove the point I made: It is the inherent belief of the caster/conjurer/seeker that lends power to words. I bet I can take a Harry Potter novel and if I believe in the words in there I can make them work for me. The 6th and 7th Book of Moses is Pseudo-apocryphal; it was not written by Moses and the rituals contained in there are based on Jewish folk magic. They work because the person believes in them. I have used the above with no success at all which is why I came up with the conclusion above. If the words had inherent magic in and of themselves, how come they do not work for everyone all the time?

Well, I can throw a wrench in your argument: As I stated earlier, I've used islamic chants and incantations lifted right out of the Koran knowing next to nothing about Islam or the verses to excise darker forces, including demons... playing a youtube recording of the Surah Al Baqurah in arabic, not knowing a word of arabic, still works in driving out the darkness from a dwelling and excising darker forces... so where is the power coming from? You may argue that the chanter of the verses may be driving "the magick" but as the conduit and the person "using" the verses to release the "magick", it wouldn't work since I don't know jack about Islam AND I don't even believe in the Islamic interpretation of God aka Allah and the exclusivity attached to those of muslim faith who have supposed access to this higher power while the rest of us don't.

Not because the words or rituals are flawed but because I went into the ritual using the Scientific method to demonstrate the inherent power of lack thereof of the ritual or word themselves when exercised with objectivity.

What objectivity is there when you clearly demonstrate a bias for "Abrahamic religions"? Scientific methodology calls for elimination of bias. Your faith in a higher force, whether that exists or not, your choice of path... these are all variables that can be controlled in your "experiment." So this wasn't exactly an exercise in objectivity.

Because your ancestors were of Jewish descent if I remember correctly, these rtual and words have power for you because your belief in them is absolute and therefor you or someone with the same believes can use the Books of Moses succesfully all the time whereas other who do not share the same believes cannot.

Again, I know of several others that have used different psalms and other religious texts to excise demons... there was no basis for belief, moreso desperation, an "anything at this point" attitude...

My final point is: psalms, religious texts, etc are all imbued with the power of that which cannot be defined by any of us. Demons are low on the totem pole... they don't stand a chance.

(At the end of the day, your beliefs are understandable given your allegiance with those things, and I'm not here to change your mind... I'm actually quite enjoying this debate :dancing:)

sadlotus79 wrote:I am not confusing hoodoo for vodou. but thanks anyways :thumbup:

I consider our lotus a resource on hoodoo/voodoo practices... she knows her stuff and is the first person I think of when I have questions :ugeek:

Terror Misu wrote:

sadlotus79 wrote:I am not confusing hoodoo for vodou. but thanks anyways :thumbup:

I consider our lotus a resource on hoodoo/voodoo practices... she knows her stuff and is the first person I think of when I have questions :ugeek:

um thanks i guess :oops:
I don't think of myself as any kind of resource though...

Terror Misu wrote:

Falicea272 wrote:

Adelphia wrote:No edit button. Here are a few books on the use of bible in magickal traditions:

Qabbalistic Magic: Talismans, Psalms, Amulets, and the Practice of High Ritual
http://www.amazon.com/Qabbalistic-Magic ... 1594773580

and

BIBLE SPELLS: Obtain Your Every Desire By Activating The Secret Meaning of Hundreds of Biblical Verses
http://www.amazon.com/BIBLE-SPELLS-Acti ... ble+spells

and of course, the 6th and 7th Books of Moses.

Thanks for the link, however these examples only serve to prove the point I made: It is the inherent belief of the caster/conjurer/seeker that lends power to words. I bet I can take a Harry Potter novel and if I believe in the words in there I can make them work for me. The 6th and 7th Book of Moses is Pseudo-apocryphal; it was not written by Moses and the rituals contained in there are based on Jewish folk magic. They work because the person believes in them. I have used the above with no success at all which is why I came up with the conclusion above. If the words had inherent magic in and of themselves, how come they do not work for everyone all the time?

Well, I can throw a wrench in your argument: As I stated earlier, I've used islamic chants and incantations lifted right out of the Koran knowing next to nothing about Islam or the verses to excise darker forces, including demons... playing a youtube recording of the Surah Al Baqurah in arabic, not knowing a word of arabic, still works in driving out the darkness from a dwelling and excising darker forces... so where is the power coming from? You may argue that the chanter of the verses may be driving "the magick" but as the conduit and the person "using" the verses to release the "magick", it wouldn't work since I don't know jack about Islam AND I don't even believe in the Islamic interpretation of God aka Allah and the exclusivity attached to those of muslim faith who have supposed access to this higher power while the rest of us don't.

Not because the words or rituals are flawed but because I went into the ritual using the Scientific method to demonstrate the inherent power of lack thereof of the ritual or word themselves when exercised with objectivity.

What objectivity is there when you clearly demonstrate a bias for "Abrahamic religions"? Scientific methodology calls for elimination of bias. Your faith in a higher force, whether that exists or not, your choice of path... these are all variables that can be controlled in your "experiment." So this wasn't exactly an exercise in objectivity.

Because your ancestors were of Jewish descent if I remember correctly, these rtual and words have power for you because your belief in them is absolute and therefor you or someone with the same believes can use the Books of Moses succesfully all the time whereas other who do not share the same believes cannot.

Again, I know of several others that have used different psalms and other religious texts to excise demons... there was no basis for belief, moreso desperation, an "anything at this point" attitude...

My final point is: psalms, religious texts, etc are all imbued with the power of that which cannot be defined by any of us. Demons are low on the totem pole... they don't stand a chance.

(At the end of the day, your beliefs are understandable given your allegiance with those things, and I'm not here to change your mind... I'm actually quite enjoying this debate :dancing:)

Sorry to have to give you back your wrench but...

Again you have actually proven my point. INTENT is the word of the day. The fact that you mention the use of the verses from the Koran to: "excise dark forces inluding demons" implies that your intention was to excise dark forces including demons from dwellings as you put it. You were not, I assume, looking for the verses you mention from youtube to cast a love spell or money spell but because you wanted to get rid of something (in your won words). So again INTENT is the word.

My objectivity is based on the fact that I did not do the ritual from the Book of Moses using the religious bias it calls for. I performed this ritual with the expectation that if the words themselves and only the words and mechanics of the ritual iteself were imbued with power then my belief or personal opinions should not influence the outcome (Scientific Method). The Scientific Method demands that during an experiment, the outcome most be proven and repeatable without the use of personal opinions to influence the outcome.(I know because I'm a Microbiologist and thus trained in it). I followed the instructions to the letter without casting my believes on it and it did not work. Again I'm not biased against religion because my personal opinion of them should not influence the verity of its precepts or the outcome of their rituals, therefore, because I don't believe in Organized religions in general and Abrahamic Religions in particular does not prove my bias because to be biased I MUST FAVOR one option above another; simply put I choose not to believe in Abrahamic religions because I do not favor any religion. If I were biased I would favor Christianity over Islam or Judaism over Christianity and so forth. Biased demands that one choice among the other of equal value be made.

You mentioned "desperation" in your quote: "Again, I know of several others that have used different psalms and other religious texts to excise demons... there was no basis for belief, moreso desperation, an "anything at this point" attitude..." Desperation is an emotional responce to outside stress factors caused by an overload of stress hormones in the body. Stress causes high heart rate and an overabunance of epinephrine to be secreted by the brain. This amount of energy fuels the intent to be rid of it; in other words, times of high emotional distress produce the mind and body with the necessary energy and will to eliminate the stress. When humans are stressed they want to be out of stress as fast as they can and therefore the physical mechanics of our minds and bodies; it is a defensive mechanism against severe cardiac duress and mental injury. Fight or flight responce in essence. This energy fuels the intent to be rid of the "thing" that is casuing the stress in the first place. That's why when people cast a hex or curse they must be in an angry or rage state of mind to fuel the hex or curse with the energy it needs to be fulfilled. It's the same with love spells; you must feel intently the emotion the spell foreshadows to be effective. Anyone who practices witchcraft can tell you this is true.

Often people hold on to the views and believes of a certain religion because they fear that if they don't believe in religion then the existance of their spirits is diminished or undermined. I for one know that is not the case because the Sun will be hot whether I believe it is or not. I don't have to believe in any religion to prove or sustain the belief in the existance of my companions; I know they exist whether I believe they do or don't. As for demons being in the bottom that's inconsecuential to me. I don't care about their hyrarchical position in the scheme of things, just in their ability to produce the desired results I want and that is enough for me whether it is my demons or djinn. (I'm not saying this is your case, though)

I do enjoy these discussion specially with you becuse obviously you are a rational person who does not take things at face value; that alone elicits respect from me. Kudos!!

One last thing: Why is it that some spells work for some people and not for others? Also why is it that some people can do the same spell and be succefull some times and not others? I still think is all about Intent. What do you think, Terror?

Again, this is about weather or not saying prayer works. My personal experience, it works with intent. I have said "As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I walk with the lord and the lord is with thee."

On a weird note: I know some DA demons (not SE) who rather encourage learning these techniques. Same with the whole angel army I keep nearby. The consensus is that human should never have to deal with a Terror style encounter, and protection of any variety is worth knowing.

Thanks to everyone for the info. Noted and filed.

Falicea272 wrote:
Sorry to have to give you back your wrench but...

Ohhhhhh-hooooo! You raise me one wrench, I raise you TWO!!

EN GARDE! *brandishes a sword... err wrench!* :dancing:

Again you have actually proven my point. INTENT is the word of the day. The fact that you mention the use of the verses from the Koran to: "excise dark forces inluding demons" implies that your intention was to excise dark forces including demons from dwellings as you put it. You were not, I assume, looking for the verses you mention from youtube to cast a love spell or money spell but because you wanted to get rid of something (in your won words). So again INTENT is the word.
[/quote]

We're talking apples and oranges here... BELIEF vs. INTENT which I think we're both mixing up. I didn't need a belief system in place for islamic incantations to work in driving out demonic forces. Certainly, I played the surah al baqurah in the hopes of getting rid of them, so the intent is there... that component is most certainly a part of the magickal process and I give you that, but what I'm going with at the end of the day is simply that psalms, prayers, religious texts work independent of belief.... NOT a muslim, know practically nothing about the Koran, but the surah verses work. Of course I can only point to my experience (which doesn't negate your experience, btw).

My objectivity is based on the fact that I did not do the ritual from the Book of Moses using the religious bias it calls for. I performed this ritual with the expectation that if the words themselves and only the words and mechanics of the ritual iteself were imbued with power then my belief or personal opinions should not influence the outcome (Scientific Method).

I enjoyed reading this because it made me think about the "experiment" i conducted years ago around the time my third eye was ripped wide open. One night I decided I would test the veracity of the claim that the words "In the name of Jesus Christ" actually contain power, something I did not believe. I stood in my bathroom with the lights on at night and uttered the words once, after centering myself. Nothing. I uttered the words again, several times in fact, and to my surprise the lights glowed around me and kicked up a slight notch... so, I started chanting the words again and again and again repeatedly in quick succession for 1 minute straight... and the bathroom lights continued to glow, brighter and brighter until finally it was BLINDING in there. My point in all this - no intent, no belief.

biased I MUST FAVOR one option above another; simply put I choose not to believe in Abrahamic religions because I do not favor any religion. If I were biased I would favor Christianity over Islam or Judaism over Christianity and so forth. Biased demands that one choice among the other of equal value be made.

Sure, but that's not what I meant when I indicated bias. Bias can be defined as set forth above but can also indicate an inclination, as in your case, to be prejudiced against "Abrahamic religions".

That's why when people cast a hex or curse they must be in an angry or rage state of mind to fuel the hex or curse with the energy it needs to be fulfilled. It's the same with love spells; you must feel intently the emotion the spell foreshadows to be effective. Anyone who practices witchcraft can tell you this is true.

What does a lecture on the autonomic responses of the body including the fight/flight response have to do with what I'm saying - that one needn't have belief to get results from psalms, prayers, religious texts, etc? I'm living proof, I can't speak for others, but I'm one instance of the latter point, that invoking the psalm 91 obliterated a demonic force unlike anything even in your keep. Again, like all things in the paranormal, everything we debate is subjective, I appreciate you pulling in aspects of scientific methodology because anything that geeky makes me smile but it's an exercise in silliness and merely tells me that yes, this is your profession and as such it makes sense that you would try to combine the two in rationalizing the paranormal.

Often people hold on to the views and believes of a certain religion because they fear that if they don't believe in religion then the existance of their spirits is diminished or undermined. I for one know that is not the case because the Sun will be hot whether I believe it is or not. I don't have to believe in any religion to prove or sustain the belief in the existance of my companions; I know they exist whether I believe they do or don't. As for demons being in the bottom that's inconsecuential to me. I don't care about their hyrarchical position in the scheme of things, just in their ability to produce the desired results I want and that is enough for me whether it is my demons or djinn. (I'm not saying this is your case, though)

I do believe we are on the same page with much of what you state here, though again, your bias in this is with respect to your prejudicial opinion of Abrahamic religions (it drives me nuts to say "Abrahamic religions"...HAHA!) and not your preference of picking one religion over Abrahamic religions.

I do enjoy these discussion specially with you becuse obviously you are a rational person who does not take things at face value; that alone elicits respect from me. Kudos!!

My hat's off to you, sir :lol:

One last thing: Why is it that some spells work for some people and not for others? Also why is it that some people can do the same spell and be succefull some times and not others? I still think is all about Intent. What do you think, Terror?

Yes, most definitely intent is the variable, but what about belief? They have the intent, they cast, but the accuracy level is really dependent upon belief... belief in the possibilities that exist in the Universe, in the outcomes... :crazy: :dancing:

http://forum.luckymojo.com/hoodoo-and-r ... 10231.html

Holy <<Removed by Mod>> , omfg...please forgive me,,,,, I am oh so sorry, looks like I have misread the founder (Cat) of LuckyMojo.com
and all her extensive knowledge on the subject of the differences between the two. Wow. Let me go spank myself.

But at least calling Voodoo and Hoodoo the same thing, will let them know you are in fact a generic white guy

Jenny - OT but I feel you are from London?

Jennypenny wrote:On a weird note: I know some DA demons (not SE) who rather encourage learning these techniques. Same with the whole angel army I keep nearby. The consensus is that human should never have to deal with a Terror style encounter, and protection of any variety is worth knowing.

Thanks to everyone for the info. Noted and filed.

Well spoken!