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Tarvos
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I also want to give credit for my great success on my journey of Spirit Keeping to Magnolia, Ash, and the CH team, just like Adair. I have a large collection of CH bindings, and I still have many more that I need to organize. If I were to count, I probably have over 300 or more bindings from them. And those are just the ones I've kept for myself, not including the ones I've gifted to my family. Just FYI, the CH bindings have really helped me speed up my communication with my Keep, enhance my personal power, and explore anything related to the paranormal or unrelated to it.

It seems that tearing something down to prove its value is a human tendency, but I find it quite not okay, low even. I've experienced being torn down and having my work stolen, with someone else taking the credit. I wish there were better ways for people to compete, but some choose to do whatever it takes. I just want to emphasize that CH's work is not subpar; otherwise, I wouldn't invest my time and money into acquiring so many of their bindings.

Calling a long-standing and reputable shop like CH subpar is simply laughable. From what I've seen, CH is the largest shop in the paranormal community. When I first started, I spent weeks browsing through the races they offer and spell bindings, not just a quick ten minutes. I can't believe how amazing it is that no other place provides a master vessel. It's truly unbelievable, especially if you have a lot of companions to enjoy it with. Personally, I am so thankful for this because I currently have 3 MVs, and I have even bigger plans for the future MVs! And let's not forget about the special bindings, occasional offers, and third-party options they have. Honestly, I don't think any other practitioners combined could even come close to offering a fraction of what CH has in their shop. So, without a doubt, CH has my trust and support. And obviously my lunch money. Lol.
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Tarvos wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 1:15 am And let's not forget about the special bindings, occasional offers, and third-party options they have. Honestly, I don't think any other practitioners combined could even come close to offering a fraction of what CH has in their shop. So, without a doubt, CH has my trust and support. And obviously my lunch money. Lol.
Exactly Tarvos. The fact remains, there simply isn't anyone else in this community who is on their level.
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Okay, wow! I know that this is an old thread, but I've learned a lot of things and wanted to thank everyone for their valuable input. It would really help any newbie like me.
One thing that is still not clear though is about direct bindings, i.e. binding done on spirit. While I understand most of the same principals might apply. But would it differ anyhow compared to a binding done one a vessel?
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Killa wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:58 am On 3 , Well to be fair, there are some people that are actually capable of giving accurate readings on spirit, despite the cloaking or perceptions that filter, and can greatly assist one in communication via medium. This may be different from directly bonding with the spirit which I see nothing wrong with if a person has a strong reason to take the information being received for more then a grain. I have always gotten super accurate spirit readings.

Otherwise I agree with the rest on liability..
there are some people
Could you please point to those some people if that's possible? While I've read the entire thread and I understand the complications that come along with it, it would still be good to know if there are any possible options out there as a fallback option.
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Falicea272 wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:02 pm In my opinion, we have to start by admitting that the business of spirit keeping is one that is initially based on trust alone. If the person interested in acquiring a spirit does not have the ability to sense the paranormal initially then of course, human nature will kick in, and the opinions of others who are seen as more experienced will be sought to appraise the situation. Many of us here in this forum are still developing the ability to sense our own spirits even after years of bonding with them so imagine a new keeper trying to find out if they have a real spirit in their keep or if it is an empty vessel.

Yes, there are sellers out there that do prey on the unsuspecting and will knowingly sell empty vessels just for a quick buck and the stigma of "buyer beware" will rear it's ugly head sooner or later, creating doubt on those whose hopes are diminished by the afront. But there are sellers out there that truly sell real entities but the newbie will not know that at first; they cannot tell who's real or who's not so they again depend on word of mouth to try and make an informed purchase.

Also, I do agree that there are spirits who really don't want anything to do with other people except their keepers and they do "cloak" their presence from prying eyes but this cloaking in my experience is a dead give-away that something is there because more often than not, the vibration coming from the vessel itself will be non existent despite the fact that all matter in the world give off vibrations naturally that can be perceived by anyone if trained in reading said vibrations. That's how I know who's cloaking and who's not. That being said, the majority of spirits I have encountered DO like to interact with others and very few tend to be aloof and antisocial. Also, vibrations can be perceived through pictures, light itself is a vibratory frequency interpreted by the brain so if there is an entity in a vessel, it can be preceived remotely, even if the actual identification of the entity is a bit fuzzy or inconclusive (there's something there but I'm not sure what it is kind of deal)

Nomally I stay away from sellers who mention the word cloak anywhere in their listings. If I can't sense the spirit I wish to acquire before doing the actual purchase (something I'm really good at after many years of practice) I'm sure as hell not gonna purchase anything at all; after all we don't buy cloth or groceries or anything for that matter without looking at it first.

There's also the other side of the spectrum; people who can actually sense vibrations naturally and mistake them for entities. It happens all the time. Also these kind of individuals, although quite sensitive to vibrations, do attract unbound spirits that sometimes masquarade as the entity in the vessel just for the chance of communication.

I do agree that reading other vendor's wares can cause problems here; after all, this is not Angie's List so I do agree we should tread lightly here if at all. That being said, vendors everywhere should accept the fact that full disclosure and opinions of people about their wares is not the same as defamation of character. No court of law will uphold a complaint from any spirit seller because the actual validity of the product cannot be proven by an appointed Justice. Is that simple, so real sellers should have no fear about a lawsuit or any other legal action against them. No prosecutor will ever bother taking on a case like this; a case that cannot be proven one way or another. That's why most ebay vendor have to state by law "the products here are for entertainment purposes only". That way they can protect themselves from customers who are dissatisfied with their spirits and they free themselves from any and all responsability theirein after the transaction is completed. BTW They are not protecting themselves from the Law but from ebay seller clauses that could cause the closure and suspension of their trade on ebay itself. Also it is a way for ebay to protect their corporate butts in the event of a dispute.

And lastly, I think if a vendor "cloaks" his or her spirits, then it immediately raises red flags for me; why does this vendor feel the need to hide the very thing he or she sells? It makes no sense. Most vendors will say it is because for the spirit's protection because they are ment for one specific person/ keeper. Really? One person among the billion people on this planet is that special?. Other say it is because other conjurers are lazy and it's easier to steal someone elses spirits and sell them as their own. Again I say: Really? You know how hard it is to conjure a spirit let alone steal one? I'm not buying it!!

My advice: learn to feel the vibrations and energy around you before becoming a spirit keeper, not only to protect you from scams but also because you will be able to tell clearly which spirit or entity really wants to share his or her life with you. Failing that, asking questions from other spirit keepers is the best way to go before making a puchase.
Thank you, that was very valuable. But just one point I noticed and wanted to confirm. You mentioned,
And lastly, I think if a vendor "cloaks" his or her spirits, then it immediately raises red flags for me but if I am not wrong. I saw an option to "clock" in some of the items/sprits offered by CH as well. So, does that mean you don't trust CH or that you are skeptical of the sprits/entities listed here? Or at least with the ones where there is an option to choose "clocking"?
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Adelphia wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:42 pm
Falicea272 wrote:
Non of my entities minded the testing; they knew it was for my benefit.
I have to agree, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater... I had only 1 of my entities vessel's tested and it was essential to make sure that the binding was appropriate, in this case, I needed a person who was highly experienced with determining this and it was an important confirmation for me that my Demon Commander was safe to work with. If he had been carelessly bound, I would need to know about it and that was not my area of expertise. When the person summoned him, he was kind of waiting around impatiently for her to do so, it was not an insult at all. He answered what he wanted to, and refused to answer other questions. The tester didn't push him or try to force him to reveal things where he was clamming up, and he also gave the reader some info that I found was helpful to know.
A different perspective. While the implication and challenges are high, it is also very valid point. Some spirits might not mind testing, while others may. If you don't mind, could you point to the person with whom you got your entities verified?
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sunnydisconnected wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:06 am Thank you, that was very valuable. But just one point I noticed and wanted to confirm. You mentioned,
And lastly, I think if a vendor "cloaks" his or her spirits, then it immediately raises red flags for me but if I am not wrong. I saw an option to "clock" in some of the items/sprits offered by CH as well. So, does that mean you don't trust CH or that you are skeptical of the sprits/entities listed here? Or at least with the ones where there is an option to choose "clocking"?
sunnydisconnected wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:02 am A different perspective. While the implication and challenges are high, it is also very valid point. Some spirits might not mind testing, while others may. If you don't mind, could you point to the person with whom you got your entities verified?
Hi. I'm not the board's Admin or Moderator...but...

If you read the original post at the start of this thread, you'll see Magnolia say that threads about reading vessels are not welcome here. It may actually be a breach of this Forum's rules to ask someone to suggest a person to try to do that.

Also, if you read what Magnolia said, she explained that many practitioners do place cloaking spells on their vessels. This does include Creepy Hollows, who are the leaders and founders in the whole field of modern spirit keeping. They've pioneered standards in this 'industry' that others have copied or followed the example of.

Cloaking is part of anti-tampering measures, which help to make the vessel a safe, secure and pleasant place for the bound companion to inhabit. And these measures also prevent others from trying to gain access to our bound companions. At its worst, that can interfere with the clarity of the link between spirit and keeper.

The CH cloaking item is something we can use on a vessel we've created ourselves. For example, if I've used a CH spell to cast that on a vessel of my own.

All CH bindings come with cloaking & tamper proofing as standard. And as far as I know, even CH items we can use to bind spirits or spells to new vessels also include tamper proofing & cloaking measures.

So it's not only about trust & the toxic nature of vessel readings in the past that have eroded and confused that.

If you have read Magnolia's OP, it's well worth re-reading and pondering the significance of what she says. And she gives very clear, technical reasons as to why even attempting to read vessels, such as CH's, is fraught with difficulty.
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Tarvos
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sunnydisconnected wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:43 am One thing that is still not clear though is about direct bindings, i.e. binding done on spirit. While I understand most of the same principals might apply. But would it differ anyhow compared to a binding done one a vessel?
All principles hold true. It's simply a matter of personal preference. Some individuals prefer to possess vessels, while others choose not to keep them at all and instead rely on bindings to their spirit.

sunnydisconnected wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:54 am
Killa wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:58 am On 3 , Well to be fair, there are some people that are actually capable of giving accurate readings on spirit, despite the cloaking or perceptions that filter, and can greatly assist one in communication via medium. This may be different from directly bonding with the spirit which I see nothing wrong with if a person has a strong reason to take the information being received for more then a grain. I have always gotten super accurate spirit readings.

Otherwise I agree with the rest on liability..
there are some people
Could you please point to those some people if that's possible? While I've read the entire thread and I understand the complications that come along with it, it would still be good to know if there are any possible options out there as a fallback option.
sunnydisconnected wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 8:02 am
Adelphia wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:42 pm
Falicea272 wrote:
Non of my entities minded the testing; they knew it was for my benefit.
I have to agree, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater... I had only 1 of my entities vessel's tested and it was essential to make sure that the binding was appropriate, in this case, I needed a person who was highly experienced with determining this and it was an important confirmation for me that my Demon Commander was safe to work with. If he had been carelessly bound, I would need to know about it and that was not my area of expertise. When the person summoned him, he was kind of waiting around impatiently for her to do so, it was not an insult at all. He answered what he wanted to, and refused to answer other questions. The tester didn't push him or try to force him to reveal things where he was clamming up, and he also gave the reader some info that I found was helpful to know.
A different perspective. While the implication and challenges are high, it is also very valid point. Some spirits might not mind testing, while others may. If you don't mind, could you point to the person with whom you got your entities verified?
These individuals are non-existent, and when they do appear, it is because the spirits have manifested for them. Without the presence of the spirits, it is uncertain what these individuals truly read. Therefore, there is no standard for "accuracy." How can one ascertain the accuracy of a reading if they must seek out these individuals instead of directly communicating with the spirits?

Skilled practitioners consistently employ cloaking spells on all their bindings, ensuring your personal safety and the serenity of your spirits. Thus, even if an individual with the ability to sense energy were to approach you, there would be no risk of your cover being blown amidst a discreet gathering where you wish to keep your identity and magical practices hidden. Furthermore, these cloaking spells serve to shield your spirits from any interference or unwanted visibility by said individuals.

If I am able to freely access any spirit present in your Keep, one might wonder what the purpose of paying for a spirit binding is. After all, couldn't we simply wait for someone on this platform to describe their spirit, and then all of us could establish a connection with that particular entity? Lol.

This is the main reason for the existence of this thread. As Magnolia has pointed out, it is a very harmful practice. You should allow only the practitioner from whom you received your binding to read your spirits, with their consent. No one else is able to read your spirits. For instance, if you have a kitsune, a reader might mistakenly perceive an unbound "vampire" nearby with a personality similar to your kitsune. Although you may find it resonant and believe it accurately represents your kitsune (lol), if you knew what they were truly reading, you'd realize it's far from accurate. In all honesty, they may not even be aware that they were reading a vampire.

There are even more examples of how great practitioners can skillfully mask their entities. Take, for instance, a male wolf spirit that the reader interprets as a male gargoyle, either with a similar or completely different personality. Yes, the reader has understood correctly. It is indeed a male gargoyle they're reading, as the practitioner has used a specific binding to ensure that the spirits cannot be read. Therefore, gaining any valuable information from it becomes quite challenging due to the numerous security measures in place. However, despite this fact, I have no doubt that there will always be individuals who persist in their efforts to find readers.

This can truly play tricks with your mind or, even worse, disrupt your connections with your spirits. You find yourself at a loss, unsure of what to believe or whom to trust to validate your experiences. My advice? Never seek confirmation from others. I never did, and perhaps this is why my abilities advanced at an accelerated rate. There are no "fallback options," as you can never truly know what the other person is actually reading.

Clearly, there are still exceptional readers who are not the practitioner from whom you obtained your bindings. However, this is an uncommon occurrence, as it requires your spirits to have a particular inclination at that moment and select to disclose information to this specific reader. Thus, the reader becomes the channel through which the spirits communicate with you. Nevertheless, should the spirits cease to share their insights, it raises the question of what exactly the reader is truly reading. Lol.

sunnydisconnected wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:06 am
Falicea272 wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:02 pm In my opinion, we have to start by admitting that the business of spirit keeping is one that is initially based on trust alone. If the person interested in acquiring a spirit does not have the ability to sense the paranormal initially then of course, human nature will kick in, and the opinions of others who are seen as more experienced will be sought to appraise the situation. Many of us here in this forum are still developing the ability to sense our own spirits even after years of bonding with them so imagine a new keeper trying to find out if they have a real spirit in their keep or if it is an empty vessel.

Yes, there are sellers out there that do prey on the unsuspecting and will knowingly sell empty vessels just for a quick buck and the stigma of "buyer beware" will rear it's ugly head sooner or later, creating doubt on those whose hopes are diminished by the afront. But there are sellers out there that truly sell real entities but the newbie will not know that at first; they cannot tell who's real or who's not so they again depend on word of mouth to try and make an informed purchase.

Also, I do agree that there are spirits who really don't want anything to do with other people except their keepers and they do "cloak" their presence from prying eyes but this cloaking in my experience is a dead give-away that something is there because more often than not, the vibration coming from the vessel itself will be non existent despite the fact that all matter in the world give off vibrations naturally that can be perceived by anyone if trained in reading said vibrations. That's how I know who's cloaking and who's not. That being said, the majority of spirits I have encountered DO like to interact with others and very few tend to be aloof and antisocial. Also, vibrations can be perceived through pictures, light itself is a vibratory frequency interpreted by the brain so if there is an entity in a vessel, it can be preceived remotely, even if the actual identification of the entity is a bit fuzzy or inconclusive (there's something there but I'm not sure what it is kind of deal)

Nomally I stay away from sellers who mention the word cloak anywhere in their listings. If I can't sense the spirit I wish to acquire before doing the actual purchase (something I'm really good at after many years of practice) I'm sure as hell not gonna purchase anything at all; after all we don't buy cloth or groceries or anything for that matter without looking at it first.

There's also the other side of the spectrum; people who can actually sense vibrations naturally and mistake them for entities. It happens all the time. Also these kind of individuals, although quite sensitive to vibrations, do attract unbound spirits that sometimes masquarade as the entity in the vessel just for the chance of communication.

I do agree that reading other vendor's wares can cause problems here; after all, this is not Angie's List so I do agree we should tread lightly here if at all. That being said, vendors everywhere should accept the fact that full disclosure and opinions of people about their wares is not the same as defamation of character. No court of law will uphold a complaint from any spirit seller because the actual validity of the product cannot be proven by an appointed Justice. Is that simple, so real sellers should have no fear about a lawsuit or any other legal action against them. No prosecutor will ever bother taking on a case like this; a case that cannot be proven one way or another. That's why most ebay vendor have to state by law "the products here are for entertainment purposes only". That way they can protect themselves from customers who are dissatisfied with their spirits and they free themselves from any and all responsability theirein after the transaction is completed. BTW They are not protecting themselves from the Law but from ebay seller clauses that could cause the closure and suspension of their trade on ebay itself. Also it is a way for ebay to protect their corporate butts in the event of a dispute.

And lastly, I think if a vendor "cloaks" his or her spirits, then it immediately raises red flags for me; why does this vendor feel the need to hide the very thing he or she sells? It makes no sense. Most vendors will say it is because for the spirit's protection because they are ment for one specific person/ keeper. Really? One person among the billion people on this planet is that special?. Other say it is because other conjurers are lazy and it's easier to steal someone elses spirits and sell them as their own. Again I say: Really? You know how hard it is to conjure a spirit let alone steal one? I'm not buying it!!

My advice: learn to feel the vibrations and energy around you before becoming a spirit keeper, not only to protect you from scams but also because you will be able to tell clearly which spirit or entity really wants to share his or her life with you. Failing that, asking questions from other spirit keepers is the best way to go before making a puchase.
Thank you, that was very valuable. But just one point I noticed and wanted to confirm. You mentioned,
And lastly, I think if a vendor "cloaks" his or her spirits, then it immediately raises red flags for me but if I am not wrong. I saw an option to "clock" in some of the items/sprits offered by CH as well. So, does that mean you don't trust CH or that you are skeptical of the sprits/entities listed here? Or at least with the ones where there is an option to choose "clocking"?
I must respectfully disagree, as this is misinformation. A skilled practitioner always cloaks their bindings to ensure that no one can tamper with them, ultimately ensuring your safety and the peace of mind of the spirits involved, as I stated above. It appears that in this particular case, the individual was unable to sense the specific spirits, believing it's due to the cloaking spells and mistakenly attributed it to the cloaking itself. However, you can still sense spirits even with the presence of cloaking spells, especially if they choose to manifest themselves to you.

Moreover, spirits do not live inside vessels or become trapped within them, so you can't sense vibrations from the vessels. I was uncertain about what these individuals were sensing within those vessels. However, in certain cases, spirits can demonstrate warm or cold energy through the vessel, especially if you are wearing it, to assure you of their presence. Therefore, if this person is in my home, they may choose to abandon their practice because although they will be able to detect various spell enchantments, they will not be able to sense anything related to my spirits. I'm worried they may once again point fingers at the cloaking spells. Lol. But the purpose of cloaking spells is not to prevent your ability to sense spirits; instead, they serve to deter individuals who wish to access your spirits without both their and your consent.
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