Thinking of Joining the Temple of Maergzjirah

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Instrument of the end fire083
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suicidex66 wrote:
Instrument of the end Fire of 83 wrote:well remember bunni they claim it's BA but someone else might as easily say its really dark DA. However, having talked with astral about it, and not remembering if she mentions it in this thread, it does seem that the patrons from there encourage people to become a-moral. Not necessarily a bad thing but extremely difficult.
I don't really see them as BA or DA. They just are. I feel like most are beings that don't really have a moral compass, they can't do right or wrong because they both have no meaning to them.

On the topic of being a-moral, when your clouded by the bias of humanity you'll never be able to see the truth of the world and the humans around you. So yes, most of us choose to remove our emotions through sheer willpower or through using them to fuel our magicks until they are so drained that they are practically non existent. Others choose to offer up their emotions to their patrons when forging a pact and even more choose to only dampen certain emotions. Not everyone chooses to do this though, some even choose to heighten them. However without emotion you are able to act within your and everyone else's best interests without being biased. It's a clarity that can't truly be described with words.

I wouldn't say its the patrons encouraging this though, it's more of a personal choice. We are all able to freely choose our patrons when we join, so if one seems out of your comfort zone you just choose one that is. If you were alluding to member of the cabal are a-moral in the sense that they would willingly attack anyone without provocation then I would have to hopefully disagree with you there as well. Although I can only speak for myself since I don't inquire often as to how my Brothers and Sisters spend their time.
Well I will not talk about the patron's nor a-morality as that is not a bad thing, however, what you defined is the core of DA they have the ability to choose to do bad or good. So while the higher up of maerzjirah have said it's BA they can choose to to good and are technically DA, but it's a lable and only has meaning because we give it such.


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Aprophis wrote:
Lord Validus wrote: To play devil's advocate a bit, pride is power. Not only does one gain from a sort of placebo effect by believing in themselves, but they're more likely to move forward while others are sitting on the sidelines. Those with pride are more likely to enter the race, while those with humility are more likely to sit on the sidelines because they don't think they're skilled enough to do anything else.
Then I have to say that you don't really understand humility. Humility doesn't equal weakness or insecurity. A humble man would run the marathon, outrun everyone else and say at the finish line: "Oh, everyone could have done that, I'm no one special". A humble man doesn't think he won't achieve anything or doesn't sit there not striving to be better, he accepts his weaknesses and works on them, he just doesn't see himself as perfect but it doesn't mean he doesn't aspire to be it.
It's more along the line of thinking "I may be good, but there's always someone better out there." Also humble people (not those who pretend to be) know exactly what they are capable of, because to become humble you have to go to your limits and recognize them.

"Pride comes before the fall" is true, mostly because it makes you think you're strong when you are not and go head to head with things you shouldn't. It's just that, placebo. You wouldn't go hit a tyrannosaurus rex with a nerf bat because you told yourself it's excalibur (or even more fun, going against a being you know nothing about, sun tzu would turn in his grave on that one).
My thoughts exactly. Humility does NOT equate to lack of self-confidence or self-worth. It equates exactly to being honest with oneself and others, and not having an over inflated ego. Being prideful what gets folks hurt (or in some cases, outright annihilated). It's a very fine line to walk. I can only think of the old adage of the noble whom is slain while trying to recite his lengthy linage.


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The issue I have with 'joining' a 'cabal' is that I don't play well with others. Especially, or moreso when it comes to as intimate a realm as occult development.
I take much more appreciation in those sources which are made available to me as an individual, rather than being herded to access them.. and there are many of great value to happen upon. Which means indulging in whatever I want, on my own terms. I don't believe that a single group holds secrets which, if they meant anything to me, I couldn't discover on my own.

Any group-think, even that which intends to be liberating, is still group think.. if you're removing yourself from the limitations of one reality or God, and handed new rules.. all you have done is switch over.
Not many people realize this, and few care, and that's fine.. but I see a lot of talk of becoming one's own God while still abiding by some sort of framework or paradigm, or answering/owing to other 'gods', and that is silly. That is the biggest contradiction I've witnessed upon the LHP oriented journey to godhood.

350 cents.


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Noctifera wrote:
Not many people realize this, and few care, and that's fine.. but I see a lot of talk of becoming one's own God while still abiding by some sort of framework or paradigm, or answering/owing to other 'gods', and that is silly. That is the biggest contradiction I've witnessed upon the LHP oriented journey to godhood.

350 cents.
I take your cents and agree *puts the cents in his pocket*


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Noctifera wrote:The issue I have with 'joining' a 'cabal' is that I don't play well with others. Especially, or moreso when it comes to as intimate a realm as occult development.
I take much more appreciation in those sources which are made available to me as an individual, rather than being herded to access them.. and there are many of great value to happen upon. Which means indulging in whatever I want, on my own terms. I don't believe that a single group holds secrets which, if they meant anything to me, I couldn't discover on my own.

Any group-think, even that which intends to be liberating, is still group think.. if you're removing yourself from the limitations of one reality or God, and handed new rules.. all you have done is switch over.
Not many people realize this, and few care, and that's fine.. but I see a lot of talk of becoming one's own God while still abiding by some sort of framework or paradigm, or answering/owing to other 'gods', and that is silly. That is the biggest contradiction I've witnessed upon the LHP oriented journey to godhood.

350 cents.
D'awww, I'm sure we would get along just fine.


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Tenebrae wrote:
D'awww, I'm sure we would get along just fine.
I don't doubt it, sir.
I do get along with people, on different levels and in different ways.. as alien as social interaction feels to me.

Though I could not tolerate it well if, I was forced into a step by step framework with others to achieve my ultimate goals. My experiences are sacred.. I share them to a limited extent, and with very few.. I have a tendency to go the complex and difficult route, and it pays off.
I feel uncomfortable being part of a machine (any semblance of Order, really, beyond scattered circumstance). And while there are those of merit, a cabalistic setting is not without that brother/sisterhood.

If I don't have the right to deviate.. it isn't of much worth, or of much fun.

While I've taken an interest to temples or groups who seem to hold a similar mindset or pursuit as I, ultimately that exposure reveals I am a pariah at heart. And how sweet it is..


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Noctifera wrote:The issue I have with 'joining' a 'cabal' is that I don't play well with others. Especially, or moreso when it comes to as intimate a realm as occult development.
I take much more appreciation in those sources which are made available to me as an individual, rather than being herded to access them.. and there are many of great value to happen upon. Which means indulging in whatever I want, on my own terms. I don't believe that a single group holds secrets which, if they meant anything to me, I couldn't discover on my own.

Any group-think, even that which intends to be liberating, is still group think.. if you're removing yourself from the limitations of one reality or God, and handed new rules.. all you have done is switch over.
Not many people realize this, and few care, and that's fine.. but I see a lot of talk of becoming one's own God while still abiding by some sort of framework or paradigm, or answering/owing to other 'gods', and that is silly. That is the biggest contradiction I've witnessed upon the LHP oriented journey to godhood.

350 cents.
You really have no understanding of the cabal if that's really all you've been able to comprehend thus far. Some things just can't adequately be described in words and what you think may be the case for all is if at all, only the case for a very few. Sure we have certain duties we must uphold but by no means are we pawns to be used and "herded" like cattle for a quick paycheck. We aren't technically required to buy anything and I personally don't agree with the price tags that our unholy Grandmaster has decided to levy on his fellow Brothers and Sisters but that's all I'll say on that.

Each disciple is there own person, we create our own paths even before joining the cabal, that aspect will never change. We are not required to "play" with each other, this isn't some game. We all walk are own paths, we aren't required to openly develop our paths with each other if we don't want to, and our paths aren't so secular as your making them out to be. You talk like we have no free will.
sources which are made available to me as an individual, rather than being herded to access them
we are not restricted from studying and practicing materials outside the cabal. To rely solely on one source for all your knowledge is an absurdly arrogant and blind statement to make.
indulging in whatever I want, on my own terms
Good for you, it's no different for any of us.
"I don't believe that a single group holds secrets which, if they meant anything to me, I couldn't discover on my own."
Of course there will always be things you can't discover on your own, you think everything will just pop out of thin air for you? No, somethings can only truly be learned if they're bequeathed unto you by some entity or you take years upon years shooting in the dark with no goal to aim for, not to mention the possibility of backfire.
group-think
Not sure what your trying to allude to with this, everyone holds their own opinions and own ways of learning. We don't always see eye to eye but were there for each other when it counts. When I first joined I remember our Grandmaster even saying a disciple isn't even required to perform the pacts if they just wish to have the knowledge.
I see a lot of talk of becoming one's own God while still abiding by some sort of framework or paradigm, or answering/owing to other 'gods', and that is silly. That is the biggest contradiction I've witnessed upon the LHP oriented journey to godhood.
If I don't have the right to deviate.. it isn't of much worth, or of much fun.
I'll just leave that at that since there's no need for me to waste any more of my time trying to fix your skewed perceptions.


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Noctifera wrote:
I don't doubt it, sir.
I do get along with people, on different levels and in different ways.. as alien as social interaction feels to me.

Though I could not tolerate it well if, I was forced into a step by step framework with others to achieve my ultimate goals. My experiences are sacred.. I share them to a limited extent, and with very few.. I have a tendency to go the complex and difficult route, and it pays off.
I feel uncomfortable being part of a machine (any semblance of Order, really, beyond scattered circumstance). And while there are those of merit, a cabalistic setting is not without that brother/sisterhood.

If I don't have the right to deviate.. it isn't of much worth, or of much fun.

While I've taken an interest to temples or groups who seem to hold a similar mindset or pursuit as I, ultimately that exposure reveals I am a pariah at heart. And how sweet it is..
Exactly why a mockery of Order is the most delicious of hierarchies.


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"Manipulatively seductive and wrapped within a facade of innocence, you'll find yourself enthralled only to discover I'm nothing remotely healthy...if you value your sanity...."

"What wondrously wicked webs we weave..."
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Tenebrae wrote:
Noctifera wrote:
I don't doubt it, sir.
I do get along with people, on different levels and in different ways.. as alien as social interaction feels to me.

Though I could not tolerate it well if, I was forced into a step by step framework with others to achieve my ultimate goals. My experiences are sacred.. I share them to a limited extent, and with very few.. I have a tendency to go the complex and difficult route, and it pays off.
I feel uncomfortable being part of a machine (any semblance of Order, really, beyond scattered circumstance). And while there are those of merit, a cabalistic setting is not without that brother/sisterhood.

If I don't have the right to deviate.. it isn't of much worth, or of much fun.

While I've taken an interest to temples or groups who seem to hold a similar mindset or pursuit as I, ultimately that exposure reveals I am a pariah at heart. And how sweet it is..
Exactly why a mockery of Order is the most delicious of hierarchies.
Chaos is delicious


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suicidex66 wrote:I'll just leave that at that since there's no need for me to waste any more of my time trying to fix your skewed perceptions.
We meet again!

I was generalizing in regards to cabals and on the topic of the achievement of godhood, self mastery, etc. Of course I can't know the nature of this Temple from the inside. And I think you've taken some of my wording a little too seriously, as well.. Therefore what you've stated really doesn't apply to, or change what I am stating. It might indeed have been a total waste of time for you to respond.

I have an opinion on the existence of 'cabals'. I am familiar with quite a number of them, at least one I find myself in strong agreement with but would still refrain from being part of.

You may have a different opinion on what constitutes as being herded, I'm rather an extremist so even what you regard as minor, I include in my deduction. The herd mentality is one which, more often in subtlety obscures us from important aspects of growth.

I honestly do not care to learn more about ToM, as I am not interested in being a part of it. More power to those who do, and will get something out of it.
I can't think poorly of them.. the higher ups certainly know what they are doing.

As for this -

Of course there will always be things you can't discover on your own, you think everything will just pop out of thin air for you? No, somethings can only truly be learned if they're bequeathed unto you by some entity or you take years upon years shooting in the dark with no goal to aim for, not to mention the possibility of backfire.


No, I've made it quite clear I work very hard to get where I want to be, and that others must make the proper investment to achieve such things.
I never so much as suggested things pop out of thin air.. that's silly.
Sometimes they do, but that's quite another subject. ;)

We each experience quite differently.. so yes, some things might be easier for me than they are for you, and vice versa. Some things come insanely easily to me, in fact. Nonetheless my 'path' has been rife with difficulty and it is only from plunging into the abyss time, and time again, since childhood when I began opening myself to dark deities, that I have gotten as far as I have with energies many misunderstand, fear or cringe at.

I have figured out enough on my own to know I do not need anyone else, or anyone's philosophy, to direct me. Though I welcome new dimensions of insight to instill a greater comprehension of and advancement through my own.


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