When you make a pact with a desire to gain or lose something with a being what do they often ask in return? Can it be something other else then your 'soul' or not and can the pact last into future lifetimes?

Not considering it now but just thinking if you have to for anything what are the details? Some discussed it last time in a chat but so decided to make this topic.

Mm related threads are:
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic35558.html
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic67345.html
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic35605.html

I don't know about pacts, but you might want to read this thread RE: wish granting.

darkwing wrote:Mm related threads are:
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic35558.html
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic67345.html
http://www.creepyhollows.com/phpBB3/topic35605.html

The last two are locked, but I think the terms would have to be that you could make a rule that those wishes 'must' be fulfilled in the deal no matter how it goes if it ever comes to that.

What if a certain being is not necessarily BA though?

Yea, I think you need to be tenured for the last two : \

CrashingDown wrote:I don't know about pacts, but you might want to read this thread RE: wish granting.

A marid djinn was the 2nd most recommend spirit for me below elves(which ranked 1st), I also have access to a list of beings + their sigils that you can make pacts with or summon and have had it with me for awhile but never used it.

I do have a pact with the immortal Hecate though from 2 - 3 years ago who wasn't from the list.

ServantofJustice wrote:When you make a pact with a desire to gain or lose something with a being what do they often ask in return? Can it be something other else then your 'soul' or not and can the pact last into future lifetimes?

What kind of being are you referring to? It depends on that, and on what you want to gain or lose (whether it's realistic/achievable or not).

Also, whatever you are looking for can be attained without a pact in most cases.

If it's an Immortal we're talking about, you don't need to make a pact (as explained above) and usually what you ask for won't just be done for you. They might assist you (again depending on whether it's realistic/achievable or not) but you yourself need to put in the work, focus and commitment to achieving whatever it is you want.

ServantofJustice wrote:When you make a pact with a desire to gain or lose something with a being what do they often ask in return? Can it be something other else then your 'soul' or not and can the pact last into future lifetimes?

Not considering it now but just thinking if you have to for anything what are the details? Some discussed it last time in a chat but so decided to make this topic.

I wasn't going to reply to this, but my brain wouldn't shut up about it, so here I am.

When you make a pact to gain or lose something with a being with the power to do so for you, what they ask in return can vary depending on the type of entity. However, only seriously unscrupulous gods ask for your soul, because technically, it's not yours to give. You are a spiritual and physical emanation of your soul - you belong to IT, not the other way around. It's your soul in the same way that this is our universe, or your street. Actually, that's the better example. Your soul is the street you live on. It's your street, but it also belongs to every other person with a house on it. There are lots of spirits linked to a single soul. This is the concept behind the soul family and soul mates. You all emanate from the same soul, so you naturally and instantly feel a bond to such people when you meet them.

So you see, you can't sell your soul... and very, VERY few beings can buy one, or would even WANT to.

Now that's out of the way, there are many kinds of pacts. Some of them are short term, like a pact you make with local land spirits to bring them treats in exchange for knowledge about your area. Some are long term, such as the initiation and vows a nun or priest makes to their god(s).

I have made several pacts through my lifetime. It's important to know what you're willing to give before you ask for a pact. It's also important to understand that sometimes, the price of a pact is simply energetic economics - you are asking for a service that will cost energy, so the entity will ask for energy in return. This can come as offerings or services. Offerings can include non-physical and tangible goods - blood, crystals, poetry, carrying a message to someone - the possibilities are literally endless.

However, sometimes the price of a pact has very little to do with economics and everything to do with consequences - then the price becomes a test of sorts - how badly do you want this service - are you willing to pay the price of desperation, or not? These particular types of pacts, you want to be wary of, because any service requested in a moment of dire need carries a high emotional content, and you will probably not be thinking clearly.

The best example of pacts that I have ever come across outside of my own personal experiences which I do not wish to share is that of The Little Mermaid, by Hans Christian Anderson. I'm going with this version rather than the Disney version because Anderson's original story is quite clear about pacts.

Ariel, young and sheltered, raised in a monarchy as a precious commodity, was desperate to escape the life before her. She romanticized the grass above her, and the beings she saw. She decided she was in love with one, and she was willing to trade her voice (her personal power) for never-ending suffering and the possible end of her being, to live on the land. Fish aren't meant to have feet, so the pain was going to be part of that path no matter what, and she didn't understand how much power is in sound, and how much of yourself is in your voice. She paid the price... and she got to walk on two feet for about two weeks, before the fact that she was a faerie who had no soul caught up with her, and she ended up as nothing more than sea foam.

The sea witch, Luideag, was clear about the cost, and the potential of failure. She offered Ariel a choice, cautioned her with the price, and kept her own end of the pact. Ariel's failure to understand what she was truly trading away out of foolishness doesn't negate the fact that the Sea Witch was honorable. Unlike the Disney cartoon, Luideag did not interfere once the pact was made. She'd already gotten what she wanted. There was no "if he kisses you, you get your voice back," bits - it was, "He has to kiss you before the next full moon or you die, are you really sure about this?"



It's important to understand that everything that can be traded has more than just a surface value. Say you have the unfortunate psychic gift of empathy. You've always had it, you've never experienced life without it, and all of your psychic practices are based on your perceptions of the world through the lens of your empathy. If you trade away your empathy, then all the skills you gained through your empathic gift would be altered. You wouldn't lose the knowledge, but you would have to change your entire operating procedure. Essentially, you'd have to start from scratch again.

Say you do something truly foolish and promise your first born. (Yes, it's been done. Read the story of Abraham and Isaac if you want to go biblical, but people have been promising gods, angels, and everything else their children for millennia.) Depending on the specifics of the pact, if you're female, you may get a surprise miscarriage. If you're male, it's possible your partner may experience a miscarriage. You might have a child who dies early. You might give birth to an avatar. You might give birth to a priest. Or, you might actually be required, as Abraham nearly was, to actually sacrifice your first born child.



A pact is a binding oath. Breaking the pact will cost you more than you have already paid - for one, you'll still have the price to pay, or that you've already paid, but you won't receive any results, and secondly, there's the rebounding energy of a broken pact. Broken pacts can kill. No, I'm honestly not joking. Depending on the amount of energy invested, yes, if you break a pact, it can cost you your life. Not your soul, mind you. But your health, your sanity, your memories, your power... anything is up for grabs if you break an oath, so if you're going to go around making pacts, you might want to remember that.

There's a saying, "A witch is only as good as their Word." A person who can't keep everyday promises doesn't have the Will, the Power, to back up an oath, or to make any significant changes to the world. A person who DOES have the Power to alter the world with a Word, who breaks their oath, has that Will turned against them. The destruction CAN be absolute, dependent on the amount of power behind the original Working.



That, and you'll also have a pretty pissed off entity at your heels. Which is always fun.



Some notes on making pacts - Don't promise blindly. Be sure of what you're offering, and be sure of what you're asking for. Be CLEAR about these - treat pacts the way humans treat legal matters like prenuptials. Anything not specifically asked for, not clearly defined, is unlikely to be received. Likewise, anything not clarified as being on the table as part and parcel of the price may be taken anyway, so be absolutely clear about EXACTLY what you're willing to pay.

Don't make a pact when you're desperate - if you decide you MUST make a pact when you're in a corner, be a thousand times more careful than you would if you were making a pact with a cool head.

Never offer anything you don't understand the full ramifications of losing, and never ask for something without understanding the full price in all its permutations. If, like Ariel, you get what you ask for, pay what you promised, and still end up with nothing because you didn't fully comprehend what was being offered or the costs, because you still chose to make the pact, the consequences are totally your responsibility.

Never make promises you don't intend to keep. Never offer something you don't intend to give.



Most pacts in my experience are relatively simple and not costly. My local Genus Loci wants a specific type of incense burned on specific days in a specific place. In exchange, I have access to certain energies that others who haven't bargained with her don't get to play with... as long as I keep the bargain. If I don't burn the incense, my privileges will be revoked and it's unlikely she'll be willing to make another pact with me.

I made a pact with an entity which involved a promise to, once I conjured her to a vessel, never remove her vessel. Forgetting and taking her vessel off before a shower proved to be extremely costly. Not only have I never seen her again, but I've been unable to work with most of her species, and I'm told that it injured her. I know it weakened me.

I've made pacts with various deities over the years. Some deities can be flexible about pacts. Others are extremely specific. I once failed to procure the correct type of Sake for an offering to a Japanese Kami, which resulted in the entity burning my aura in a fit of pique and never speaking to me again. I recently agreed to some specific daily tasks while working with a new entity in my household, and when I became ill due to fatigue and was unable to complete those daily tasks, he stopped meeting me at our usual time. While he understands that I was ill, he probably won't be back except on days that I complete all the tasks set to me. He's more forgiving than most - but part of my pact was that freedom - I made it clear that I'm not always well enough to keep up my part, and he understood that flexibility was a necessary part of our agreement.

There is one god I know of which people make pacts with frequently, and usually out of desperation. I'm not sure whether it's the fact that he knows the people bargaining with him don't know how to honor their promises, or whether he just doesn't care about the people who come to him for help, but mostly even people who keep their words with him don't get what they asked for. I would advise that if you're going to make a pact with a god, you research them first, and make sure they're the type to keep their words... and also try and find out what they usually do to people who don't. Not everyone can take being turned into a spider and make it work for them.

I think that's about it. I've rambled enough details (probably repeated them).. feel free to ask any questions. I'll answer tomorrow. Now that my brain has regurgitated all this for your viewing, I'm hoping it will let me sleep.

-Raven

MagickFromtheMysts wrote:

ServantofJustice wrote:When you make a pact with a desire to gain or lose something with a being what do they often ask in return? Can it be something other else then your 'soul' or not and can the pact last into future lifetimes?

Not considering it now but just thinking if you have to for anything what are the details? Some discussed it last time in a chat but so decided to make this topic.

I wasn't going to reply to this, but my brain wouldn't shut up about it, so here I am.

When you make a pact to gain or lose something with a being with the power to do so for you, what they ask in return can vary depending on the type of entity. However, only seriously unscrupulous gods ask for your soul, because technically, it's not yours to give. You are a spiritual and physical emanation of your soul - you belong to IT, not the other way around. It's your soul in the same way that this is our universe, or your street. Actually, that's the better example. Your soul is the street you live on. It's your street, but it also belongs to every other person with a house on it. There are lots of spirits linked to a single soul. This is the concept behind the soul family and soul mates. You all emanate from the same soul, so you naturally and instantly feel a bond to such people when you meet them.

So you see, you can't sell your soul... and very, VERY few beings can buy one, or would even WANT to.

Now that's out of the way, there are many kinds of pacts. Some of them are short term, like a pact you make with local land spirits to bring them treats in exchange for knowledge about your area. Some are long term, such as the initiation and vows a nun or priest makes to their god(s).

I have made several pacts through my lifetime. It's important to know what you're willing to give before you ask for a pact. It's also important to understand that sometimes, the price of a pact is simply energetic economics - you are asking for a service that will cost energy, so the entity will ask for energy in return. This can come as offerings or services. Offerings can include non-physical and tangible goods - blood, crystals, poetry, carrying a message to someone - the possibilities are literally endless.

However, sometimes the price of a pact has very little to do with economics and everything to do with consequences - then the price becomes a test of sorts - how badly do you want this service - are you willing to pay the price of desperation, or not? These particular types of pacts, you want to be wary of, because any service requested in a moment of dire need carries a high emotional content, and you will probably not be thinking clearly.

The best example of pacts that I have ever come across outside of my own personal experiences which I do not wish to share is that of The Little Mermaid, by Hans Christian Anderson. I'm going with this version rather than the Disney version because Anderson's original story is quite clear about pacts.

Ariel, young and sheltered, raised in a monarchy as a precious commodity, was desperate to escape the life before her. She romanticized the grass above her, and the beings she saw. She decided she was in love with one, and she was willing to trade her voice (her personal power) for never-ending suffering and the possible end of her being, to live on the land. Fish aren't meant to have feet, so the pain was going to be part of that path no matter what, and she didn't understand how much power is in sound, and how much of yourself is in your voice. She paid the price... and she got to walk on two feet for about two weeks, before the fact that she was a faerie who had no soul caught up with her, and she ended up as nothing more than sea foam.

The sea witch, Luideag, was clear about the cost, and the potential of failure. She offered Ariel a choice, cautioned her with the price, and kept her own end of the pact. Ariel's failure to understand what she was truly trading away out of foolishness doesn't negate the fact that the Sea Witch was honorable. Unlike the Disney cartoon, Luideag did not interfere once the pact was made. She'd already gotten what she wanted. There was no "if he kisses you, you get your voice back," bits - it was, "He has to kiss you before the next full moon or you die, are you really sure about this?"



It's important to understand that everything that can be traded has more than just a surface value. Say you have the unfortunate psychic gift of empathy. You've always had it, you've never experienced life without it, and all of your psychic practices are based on your perceptions of the world through the lens of your empathy. If you trade away your empathy, then all the skills you gained through your empathic gift would be altered. You wouldn't lose the knowledge, but you would have to change your entire operating procedure. Essentially, you'd have to start from scratch again.

Say you do something truly foolish and promise your first born. (Yes, it's been done. Read the story of Abraham and Isaac if you want to go biblical, but people have been promising gods, angels, and everything else their children for millennia.) Depending on the specifics of the pact, if you're female, you may get a surprise miscarriage. If you're male, it's possible your partner may experience a miscarriage. You might have a child who dies early. You might give birth to an avatar. You might give birth to a priest. Or, you might actually be required, as Abraham nearly was, to actually sacrifice your first born child.



A pact is a binding oath. Breaking the pact will cost you more than you have already paid - for one, you'll still have the price to pay, or that you've already paid, but you won't receive any results, and secondly, there's the rebounding energy of a broken pact. Broken pacts can kill. No, I'm honestly not joking. Depending on the amount of energy invested, yes, if you break a pact, it can cost you your life. Not your soul, mind you. But your health, your sanity, your memories, your power... anything is up for grabs if you break an oath, so if you're going to go around making pacts, you might want to remember that.

There's a saying, "A witch is only as good as their Word." A person who can't keep everyday promises doesn't have the Will, the Power, to back up an oath, or to make any significant changes to the world. A person who DOES have the Power to alter the world with a Word, who breaks their oath, has that Will turned against them. The destruction CAN be absolute, dependent on the amount of power behind the original Working.



That, and you'll also have a pretty pissed off entity at your heels. Which is always fun.



Some notes on making pacts - Don't promise blindly. Be sure of what you're offering, and be sure of what you're asking for. Be CLEAR about these - treat pacts the way humans treat legal matters like prenuptials. Anything not specifically asked for, not clearly defined, is unlikely to be received. Likewise, anything not clarified as being on the table as part and parcel of the price may be taken anyway, so be absolutely clear about EXACTLY what you're willing to pay.

Don't make a pact when you're desperate - if you decide you MUST make a pact when you're in a corner, be a thousand times more careful than you would if you were making a pact with a cool head.

Never offer anything you don't understand the full ramifications of losing, and never ask for something without understanding the full price in all its permutations. If, like Ariel, you get what you ask for, pay what you promised, and still end up with nothing because you didn't fully comprehend what was being offered or the costs, because you still chose to make the pact, the consequences are totally your responsibility.

Never make promises you don't intend to keep. Never offer something you don't intend to give.



Most pacts in my experience are relatively simple and not costly. My local Genus Loci wants a specific type of incense burned on specific days in a specific place. In exchange, I have access to certain energies that others who haven't bargained with her don't get to play with... as long as I keep the bargain. If I don't burn the incense, my privileges will be revoked and it's unlikely she'll be willing to make another pact with me.

I made a pact with an entity which involved a promise to, once I conjured her to a vessel, never remove her vessel. Forgetting and taking her vessel off before a shower proved to be extremely costly. Not only have I never seen her again, but I've been unable to work with most of her species, and I'm told that it injured her. I know it weakened me.

I've made pacts with various deities over the years. Some deities can be flexible about pacts. Others are extremely specific. I once failed to procure the correct type of Sake for an offering to a Japanese Kami, which resulted in the entity burning my aura in a fit of pique and never speaking to me again. I recently agreed to some specific daily tasks while working with a new entity in my household, and when I became ill due to fatigue and was unable to complete those daily tasks, he stopped meeting me at our usual time. While he understands that I was ill, he probably won't be back except on days that I complete all the tasks set to me. He's more forgiving than most - but part of my pact was that freedom - I made it clear that I'm not always well enough to keep up my part, and he understood that flexibility was a necessary part of our agreement.

There is one god I know of which people make pacts with frequently, and usually out of desperation. I'm not sure whether it's the fact that he knows the people bargaining with him don't know how to honor their promises, or whether he just doesn't care about the people who come to him for help, but mostly even people who keep their words with him don't get what they asked for. I would advise that if you're going to make a pact with a god, you research them first, and make sure they're the type to keep their words... and also try and find out what they usually do to people who don't. Not everyone can take being turned into a spider and make it work for them.

I think that's about it. I've rambled enough details (probably repeated them).. feel free to ask any questions. I'll answer tomorrow. Now that my brain has regurgitated all this for your viewing, I'm hoping it will let me sleep.

-Raven

Well just to reply I was asking if you can avoid needing to use soul as payment. Since if future lifetimes was a wish it would require your soul to remain.

I have a pact of some kind with Hecate(priestess of underworld aspect) for example that was sealed by blood from a few years ago? Though it was more related to walking paths than wish-granting.

ServantofJustice wrote:Well just to reply I was asking if you can avoid needing to use soul as payment. Since if future lifetimes was a wish it would require your soul to remain.

I have a pact of some kind with Hecate(priestess of underworld aspect) for example that was sealed by blood from a few years ago? Though it was more related to walking paths than wish-granting.

Ok, so I did cover using the soul as payment. There's no such thing. Despite all the mythology that Christians have spread about, you cannot use your soul to pay for anything. It's not yours to pay with.

Yes, pacts can affect future lifetimes. Or future generations.

Yes, pacts can relate to both pathwalking AND wish-granting.

I think the reason that Christians spread the myth/misunderstanding about pacts affecting your soul, or taking your soul, revolves around the fact that certain acts can absolutely affect your future selves. Christians seem to believe that anyone who isn't Christian is dangerous, corrupted. A person who made a pact lifetimes ago to follow a certain path will always be drawn back to that path - if you Christen someone and then the moment they're able to speak they start down the path of Magick, because the Christening didn't take because their lives already belonged to the Art and the gods that rule the Art, it's gonna screw with their heads and they're going to freak out. They baptize people so their god has first claim... except people who have already been claimed who are baptized without their consent, or even as children with their consent but without their understanding because they've just been conditioned to accept this way of doing things by their families, can't be claimed.

So, in this manner, yes, you can "sell" your soul... but it's not so much your soul that's sold as YOU are sold. And it ONLY happens with gods.

If part of your pact with Hecate was a kind of permanent dedication, then in future lifetimes, you will always be drawn back to witchcraft and Her. If it only involved this life, then next life you're free to choose another path and another god/dess.

With regards to beings who can be summoned with a sigil to make pacts with... they're not going to ask for your soul. They have no use for it. They might ask for a service, or they might ask for a gift. I had one angel who asked for a tomato and sage sandwich. I had a demon who asked for red roses. Ganesh likes white roses with a strong scent. My ancestors like black tea. Some of the gods I work with have asked me to talk to someone, or explain something - some of the material I've written on this forum exists because of a pact I've made that relates to me teaching people how to be safe as they open up - or teaching them how to open up in the first place.

Another thing that might be useful to know - pacts that involve future lifetimes can be altered to the point that they break on their own... and pacts can also be bought. By this, I mean that a pact between you and Hecate that includes future lifetimes can be sold by you to another deity. This deity would make arrangements with Hecate, and owe Hecate a boon for taking you from Her. This really only comes into effect if you choose a pact that a) affects your future lifetimes, and b) in one of those future lifetimes, you decide to leave Hecate's service and swear to another god.

There are gods who like to steal souls from other gods, and not pay the debts. This causes a lot of trouble for people who bind themselves to those kinds of unscrupulous deities because you end up with multiple gods owning a person and fighting over them, constantly trying to influence their lives to get them back on a path of service to only them. The spiritual, emotional tug of war, and the way it affects events in your life, can be disastrous.



You asked about wish-granting pacts. These pacts usually involve gifts. As I said in my previous post, if you ask for a service, for a task to be completed, you owe an energetic debt. Depending on the scope of your wish, and the wording, you may be required to 'feed' the entity in question.

Again, I have to bring up gods, because the concepts are the same with entities. My husband and I have a cat who has breast cancer. It's vascular, and she was diagnosed three years ago. We had four of her breasts removed when she was first diagnosed, which was when we found out that the cancer was vascular, and she was terminal. My husband made a pact with Bast for more time with our cat. We bought a statue of Bast in honor of the pact, and we make daily offerings to Bast. We will make those offerings until the day that our cat passes, because every day with her now is a gift, for which we owe a debt, and we pay it willingly.

When we needed to move out of my old apartment (the complex was set up for people who are disabled and have limited incomes because of their disabilities, and after we married, my husband's income counted, so we made too much money to stay there), I made a pact with Ganesh to find us a new place - the right place for us. He set us on the path, and we found the perfect place, very quickly, and also received the money we needed to move in immediately. The way everything fell into place was quite impressive. My pact with Him was that he would have his own Altar in our new place, and that I would make regular offerings to Him. I gave Him a Place in our Household, essentially. While neither my husband nor I owe Patronage to Him, we still recognize His influence in our lives, and we show our gratitude for it by making sure that He's honored regularly.

If you summon a being to do a service for you, it's the same way as what I've described with the Gods my household works with. You make a bargain - they do a task for you, and you provide them with the energy to do it. This can mean that you owe them some kind of service, or that you have to give them certain offerings. You may be required to make those offerings repeatedly, or regularly.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I've had entities I've called request that I wear an object for an extended period of time. I've had entities ask me to commit to doing certain tasks daily. I've had entities request certain offerings be made - like with the Genus Loci, where I'm required to offer a very specific incense, in a very specific place, a specific number of times over the course of a year, though the dates aren't specific, in order to receive access to certain energies in Her area.

So - wish granting with any entity works pretty much the same way as I've described in this post. You ask for them to do something for you, and you pay the energetic cost - either in actual energy, or in offerings or services to them. This works with gods, demons, angels, and every other type of entity I've ever worked with, including Djinni.

-Raven