I think that BA humans exists . I agree with the fact that DNA can have a action on the behavior but that does not explain everything choices , the path you take is what makes you.

Take the exemple of demons , there are demons who are Dark Art , others that are Grey others WA and others BA. For demons though it's about their nature and how they were educated . Them too have choices like human .

It's just an example but demons and humans have many similarities but at the same time work differently.

The definition of BA is a label like anything human label objects or concepts , i think BA humans become BA because of nature, choices (due to their environment , life ...) and many things else. To become that, you need indeed to sacrifice enough part of your humanity .

In any case , it is complex to explain what is a BA human

Nienna wrote:I think that BA humans exists . I agree with the fact that DNA can have a action on the behavior but that does not explain everything choices , the path you take is what makes you.

Take the exemple of demons , there are demons who are Dark Art , others that are Grey others WA and others BA. For demons though it's about their nature and how they were educated . Them too have choices like human .

It's just an example but demons and humans have many similarities but at the same time work differently.

The definition of BA is a label like anything human label objects or concepts , i think BA humans become BA because of nature, choices (due to their environment , life ...) and many things else. To become that, you need indeed to sacrifice enough part of your humanity .

In any case , it is complex to explain what is a BA human

BA humans were apparently more common in 'less tame' times also if they did exist.

WolfKnight wrote:-Also to mention their 'traits' might even have links to their physical ones (Sometimes) but not always and can affect how those look.

I would be very, very, very, very leery of any person who equates a physical attribute to a person’s goodness or evilness. Nazi Germany did exactly that to the Jews and others. People have been killed based on physical attributes being interpreted as proving they’re a witch, or evil, or are from particular ethnic groups.

If someone starts expounding on physical attributes proving that a person is good or bad, RUN, do not walk, away.

Nienna wrote:I think that BA humans exists . I agree with the fact that DNA can have a action on the behavior but that does not explain everything choices , the path you take is what makes you.

Take the exemple of demons , there are demons who are Dark Art , others that are Grey others WA and others BA. For demons though it's about their nature and how they were educated . Them too have choices like human .

It's just an example but demons and humans have many similarities but at the same time work differently.

The definition of BA is a label like anything human label objects or concepts , i think BA humans become BA because of nature, choices (due to their environment , life ...) and many things else. To become that, you need indeed to sacrifice enough part of your humanity .

In any case , it is complex to explain what is a BA human

The thing is, if we are going to use the CH definition of BA, then no human can be BA in nature, because we absolutely have a choice. Even the most evil, hateful blankety-blank walking the earth can suddenly have an epiphany, realize how horribly they’ve been acting, and turn over a new leaf on the spot. A true BA-in-nature being hasn’t got that kind of free will; they are going to choose evil every time because that’s their nature.

So, humans can DO BA things, but it’s always a choice on their part, every single time. And they can always choose against BA, every single time.

Likes2Read wrote:

WolfKnight wrote:-Also to mention their 'traits' might even have links to their physical ones (Sometimes) but not always and can affect how those look.

I would be very, very, very, very leery of any person who equates a physical attribute to a person’s goodness or evilness. Nazi Germany did exactly that to the Jews and others. People have been killed based on physical attributes being interpreted as proving they’re a witch, or evil, or are from particular ethnic groups.

If someone starts expounding on physical attributes proving that a person is good or bad, RUN, do not walk, away.

Its not about physical attributes necessarily but the way they 'display themselves' somehow within their intention.

That doesn’t make sense. If a BA nature or other inner attribute is manifesting physically, it’s manifesting physically. Even if it’s a glamor of sorts, the illusion will be perceived as genuine by onlookers. So the end result is “inner attributes are manifesting physically”.

But really, what sane evil person would deliberately flaunt a glamor that would endanger them or their goals, when they could simply NOT give any outer indication that they’re a threat?

And how many innocent people (and even animals) have been abused or died because some superstition says that this or that bodily attribute means they are a witch, or evil, or bad luck/cursed, or (in the case of albino people in some parts of Africa) their body parts can be used in magic ritual? Heck, even the female cycle has been used by some misogynistic people to “prove” that women are unclean, and merely having a uterus has been used as “proof” that women are mentally unbalanced. (The root of the word “hysteria” is derived from the word for “uterus”, hence, “hysterectomy” is the surgery that removes the uterus.)

No, physical attributes, be they actual or a glamor, do not manifest based on whether a person’s (or animal’s) inner nature is fair or foul.

Likes2Read wrote:That doesn’t make sense. If a BA nature or other inner attribute is manifesting physically, it’s manifesting physically. Even if it’s a glamor of sorts, the illusion will be perceived as genuine by onlookers. So the end result is “inner attributes are manifesting physically”.

But really, what sane evil person would deliberately flaunt a glamor that would endanger them or their goals, when they could simply NOT give any outer indication that they’re a threat?

What i think he's referring to is things like lie intents and people who act bad in their demeanor and kind of sinister. Some people have bad intentions and they aren't always good at just hiding this....i know as you say most people don't try to give themselves away but not everyone is good at hiding things. Plus, if no one gave themselves away ever you would think everyone was a bastion of light. lol

Also real people have no choice and no powers typically....and example of this is to see through things. Have you ever heard a "new" scientific fact or heard something that doesn't sound right? Or have you heard people bully others based on lies they've been told about someone else or in many cases spread lies themselves? It's natural to see through these things and question these kinds of behaviour.....real people and bad people have less capability of seeing through this kind of thing and they believe things are acceptable that you and i wouldn't find.
Do you understand what i'm saying?

Also bad peoples thoughts lie to them a lot more.

As it concerns BA, WA, and DA these concepts are very specific. I suspect that even the most stringent WA being would, with enough good cause, beat you to death. Likewise even the most evil DA being likely has friends and family within their social constructs. These concepts are ways we identify primary trends, and in a real aspect they fall into how self serving, vs how life respecting they are.

White Arts: Mostly self sacrificing, prefers to serve rather than rule, prefers to help rather than harm.

Dark Arts: Mostly self serving, but with some positive connotations. They tend to help and build connections for their own purposes.

Black Arts: Completely Self Serving. They may have a family, friends, things like that, but it simply put is because THEY find value in these things.

Now, with spirits and beings of course there are all points in between these and many we don't identify and I used a very abridged way of using an already fairly abridged system of classification. I did this though to make this easier.

People too fall into this. I knew a man once who killed his dog, I won't go into the details, because it was barking too much. Yes I went after him when I found out, no he's not a threat, and yes he was a practitioner of magick.

So, a man like that, who kills the family friend, who would take the life of the most beloved of animals for the sake of some quiet....

I'd say, that classifies as DA, maybe even BA. He'd have killed his own family given the chance. Even tried a few times. I've mentioned before I have a lot of training in combat magick, it was earned stopping people like him.

Does that make me WA? Eh, somewhere between DA and WA surely favoring WA. However, that same man had a best friend he would NEVER harm. He loved that friend like a brother. He could NEVER cause that person harm. That is someone who, by any measure you might use is at least DA and most likely BA.

So when we remove the iron clad words "always" and recognize NO BEING always does the same thing the same way every time, heck angels fall and demons rise after all, then this spectrum applies great to humans, and makes maybe a bit more sense to spirits and other beings too.

I honestly don't understand why the definitions have to be discussed over and over. It's pretty clear. Most of the beings are DA.

There is a Purity in being WA and BA. A purity you don't have in DA, since there's a choice.
If you take evil and distil everything good and nice and not killing out of it, you get BA. The purest of it, where nothing nice remains. Nothing at all. There's only prey and predator. Everything that's not stronger, is prey. And everything that is stronger is just that until it isn't stronger anymore.

I have met one real BA being and it's basically indescribable. There's a certain perverted innocence in there. Like a kid pulling the wings off a fly. If the kid knew the fly suffers incredible pain and horror. And if the kid would enjoy it to it's hearts content.

They don't really have a choice, because they act on their instincts. They like it that way. They're basically like lions or other predators in that way, if those would enjoy the pure suffering and terror they cause and not just do it for survival.

That's what the definitions are for, so people know what to keep away from. Now if people start saying BA isn't that, then what would you call those things? Blackest Arts? No-No's?

That's a good point, I think the problem though is that WA then also suggests a being that no matter how much harm is done to it could never potentially strike back in retaliation, could never and would never defend itself. This is of course the problem with these definitions. DA becomes more Gray Arts, GA, and WA becomes a bit of a myth with BA becoming a bit of a terror. Still generally speaking we humans have to classify things, and we use generalities that are a bit non-dynamic.

By that reasoning though, I've never met a true WA being, and I've met a grand total of one BA which I think you and I have talked about. The BA still having reason, but its nature was to destroy. Reason for it was just a new way to find ways to destroy, with its greatest hope to be one day taking everything else and itself out at one time.

By the very nature of a TRUE BA being, I don't think we'd even be able to reason with it in any capacity, binding it (as in forming a link) would at best be a bad idea, at worst suicidal as it would try to kill the practitioner every step of the way, and any binding would have to be forced.

The other side of that, I know of some in other mystical communities who work with beings who exist only to destroy humans. They make alliances only on the condition that the act of working with a human allows them to take more lives. Such beings are... maybe the mid way point between DA and BA by the common definition.

Really I think sometimes a lot of headaches could be solved with a classification of "Light, Gray, Dark, Red" With Light and Dark being gravitation points, Gray being the mid point, and Red representing something that all it wants to see is blood (hence red.)

I will say the mental exercise of discussing this though is, if nothing else, a valuable meditation in itself for looking at how we see the world, and why we do.