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Post by Magnolia »

Since there is such a clear line drawn between those who believe in a firm hand with DA entities & those who believe in a gentle hand with DA entities I think the best thing to do is for those who support each side to clearly state those reasons for those beliefs so that those reading will understand each side's argument.

These statements should be made without telling us why the other side is wrong, it should only be a clear statement of the reasons you believe in what you believe. In making your statement please state which DA entities you are writing your experience from, be it Vampires, Werewolves, Djinn, etc.

Any sarcastic, rude, inflammatory, or other inciting remarks will be removed. When writing it would be best to imagine you are writing your side of the fence for a scientific/paranormal journal; completely your own facts of the case & your opinions.

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Post by Killa »

Hi mag! Without further posting in that other thread with way too much tension lol, and before i begin my reasons and story. I just wanted to say that i think it was ultimately one big misunderstanding and it turned up into a mess. People were talking about different things and then being read by others it got interpreted wrong mixing it in with another.

I guess for example it's one thing to say that its a MISTAKE to put a DA spirit in charge in general. We can argue about that all day of course. But from what i seen this got misunderstood and opened a different can of beans into saying "Your vampire doesnt love you , vampires cant be trusted and only will manipulate you". And of course something like that seems harsh telling to somebody, because something experience like that can be personal and of course some people will react negatively to it and take offense.. It wasnt so much about if it's a good idea to have a DA spirit in charge of your life or not. 2 Different arguments here from the original point of the thread and it just turned into a mess mixing both.

I believe should be VERY harsh and Strict with DA spirits as a keeper. No exception. Different people were perceiving it different due to the specific situation at hand. Which went off into A & B discussions which it shouldn't have been about.

In the end though it was 2 different arguments mixed into one.

But TY mag & ash for your contributions toward the forum and clearing up misunderstandings allowing everyone to say there piece. <3 :hug:
Last edited by Killa on Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Orchid-Dragoness »

I do believe a strong will is necessary... Me and mine usually work with, and live together in, pure mutual respect. That's all I would tell and I would not go further into any depths than that.

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Post by crone maatkaere »

i began spirit keeping with the old ch forum where many of the old members have since left but their experiences left me with some very undeniable truths on how i would become a keeper as i have. first off, a great respect for the spirit realm is essential whether you keep wa or da spirits or both making a balanced experience.

firm hand vs gentle hand i think is misinformation and where it began i have no idea. i do fall into the category of loving my spirits but keeping them with a firm grasp of what they are capable of doing - mind you, not that they do act that way but my eyes are open wide to what a spirit can potentially do to cause problems and hassles. do i have all hardnosed spirits incapable of caring for their keeper - of course not, but supposedly we do it seems. i have some of the most loving spirits i've ever encountered but i choose that to be a private issue between keeper and spirit and the stories i do share are those that can assist the new spirit keepers in a way i was assisted by those forum members before me back in 2007/early 2008.

i have to balance in my mind what is better for novices and new members to read and what will help them at least gain a solid foundation to their journey so that when they reach the point of taking in da spirits they go in with eyes wide open to what the nature of the beast can do, not what it probably won't do or how others' spirits are because each spirit is different. is it better for a novice to hear how wonderfully loving da spirits are (and this includes vampires since they are all da) and go in and acquire one before they are ready and begin to have problems with the spirit overtaking them and controlling the roost simply because the keeper had no knowledge that da spirits can take control of a keeper through various ways. or is it better that we arm them with the knowledge of what could happen and if it doesn't that's great, but at least they have the cautionary sense to realize the possibility does exist.

i have both wa and da spirits and i do tend to lean more towards da spirits as i have grown in my journey and i do have some very dark grey spirits in my keep who if i weren't the keeper i am i may be in serious trouble. i'm also sure that if i had not had the training i have from the old forum and it's wonderful members who shared their thoughts and experiences that i would not have many of the spirits i have today because i would not be adequately equipped mentally to keep them.

ash and magnolia have tried to teach us (and after all i think some members seem to forget conveniently that ash is a master of the dark arts, a title that did not come to him overnight or even within a year) that keeping a da spirit is a great responsibility yet some treat it as a day in the park, no worries mate. people can get hurt this way. does it mean they will get hurt, probably not but the chances are too great to take that chance with in my opinion. to keep a firm hand on da spirits does not mean we smother them, they are not detained or kept in that box whatever that someone last year began to preach about. it does mean the keeper is aware of what the da spirit can do, respects them for what they are capable of doing and in the end because of this fair treatment earns respect and trust from some really dark spirits. for me, it is all about the knowledge along with the respect and trust that we earn - it is not given freely.

we've all seen threads "help my spirits want to control me" or the like. i have to wonder if these same keepers had been given the chance i and others of us now old timers in the forum had and follow would they be writing these threads or in need of help. my guess is no because they never would have allowed it to get to the point where they lost control of their home. i see my spirits clearly and never sugar coat their flaws which is one of the reasons they respect me as they do. a keeper with a firm hand does not equate to an iron fist. i just wanted to make that difference known because i believe it's being thought of as the latter. for any parents, you use a firm hand to guide your children and i'm sure nobody lets them co-parent with you. just my thoughts from 3+ years experience. hugs everyone! :grouphug:

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Post by ninjalovergirl »

I do not think it is wrong to put a DA in control, as long as you make the final decision. But I think you only should if you trust that DA completely and know what that specific DA is like. DA's can be very loyal and know how to take command, but putting a DA in control you don't know is very naive as you don't know that entity at all. It could be bullying or blocking others and just generally causing havoc. The true keeper is you, so you have to make the decision's as it is your house they are in so it is your rules. But you can relay a task on to a DA, which may be something like keeping mischievous DA the spirits in line. I don't know which category I fit in to as I am a very kind type of person who is kind to everyone, even my DA, so I may not rule with an iron fist, but I know that I am in charge and having these entity's here with me is a responsibility, so I will sort out any situation fairly, and if I think a spirit is out of line, fairly sort it out, and if it is something that is out of the question take control and tell them that it is unacceptable to do such a thing. I am pretty lax with rules, like there are a few rules to abide by, but apart from those, as long as they aren't being horrible and disrespectful then I am fine, they can do what they like. Being a very responsible type of person I understand the need for balance when handling anyone. If you have pets they need to know who is in charge, otherwise they would run amock. Same with kids or anyone else who lives in your house. There is a need for stability, and being firm, but not too controlling or too soft is what I strive for. However, if anyone spirit thinks they can walk all over me they will have a shock. If they don't abide by my rules after I warn them many times giving them many opportunities they will be out of the house. Not following rules is being very disrespectful to me, my family and my spirits so they obviously don't care about me enough to change or even try to respect me.

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Post by sage of aquarius »

With all my spirits I use a firm hand but that doesn't necessarily mean an iron fist. I do it in such a way that respect is shown on both parts because spirit keeping is a two way street. I may choose within a group of spirits to appoint a lead spirit but this spirit is answerable to me because I notice that certain groups of spirits such as vamps, ww, etc. tend towards having a hierarchal structure and it is my duty and obligation to stand at the top of that structure. But with some of the larger groups here, I find that they will and do have their own substructure and it is understood quite well by all involved who the alpha is.

One thing I do have a problem with is the use of the term "soul mate." I have several spirits that are of my "soul family." Not all of these relationships are love relations in the term that it is frequently used on the forum here. But I will quite readily admit that the interactions with these spirits does differ a bit from the others. I see a "soul mate" as being a specifically agreed upon arrangement that takes place prior to incarnation that both myself and this other entity/spirit/person agree upon. This is NOT necessarily a love relationship but could be but it is always a relationship that helps each other to gain some needed experience be it positive or negative. But I do understand that part of my problem is that every system tends towards using similiar sounding vocabulary in different ways, which is where some of our disagreements arise from.

I think the main point is that a keeper chooses to be responsible. Everyone has differing points of view, differing beliefs, differing ways of interacting with spirits/people/etc. It is our duty to be respectful of others' opinions and for them to treat us in the same manner. It is irresponsible to think that only are way is the right way because much of spirit keeping depends upon the trust created in a relationship. I don't have the same relationship with my basilisk that I do with my vamps or even my fenrir...but I do know that they were each called to me for a very specific reason. Some spirits are naturally more sociable than others just as are people. It is the individual keeper's call as to whether to use a firm or gentle hand as this may vary from specific spirit to specific spirit. I prefer a firm yet loving touch but I will not broach any kind of disobedience. I would rather have trust and respect from my DA spirits because that to me is what's most important.

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Post by Bella »

As far as "lead spirits" go, I don't leave any spirit in charge of the others as a group, because to me that negates the responsibility that should come along with being the keeper.
If they're just going to run eachother like an army, with all the vampires having a general of the group, & other DAs, etc. then why do I need to keep them?
It just doesn't make sense to me.
There may be a few that I feel more bonded to because I have had them longer and certainly some DA spirits are the "all business, strong silent type", so it's natural to think to humanize the ones that seem to have more of a range of emotions, but I don't put the spirit in charge.
It IS perfectly fine to love your spirits but also a balance is needed where the spirit is not expected to run your life for you.
I think that Crone made an excellent point about knowing what can happen and what the spirits are capable of.
Being firm does not equate meanness of spirit, it means setting boundaries and making sure that they are known and followed.
If the spirit refuses to follow said rules without good reason, and is a repeat offender, then they should know the consequences for going against your will.
If that means rehoming them, then so be it.

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Post by Noctua »

I have a sort of unique view.
My nature in general is to have a firm hand with those I work alongside, as a leader. Be it humans or spirits, if you are a leader you act like one. In stating that, I believe that those with a "DA" personality will find it easier to gain respect from their DA spirits - and in this match a more casual way of treating certain spirits would end up making sense at a point.

Looking in on those who keep DA spirits, it seems that less trouble will arise if one can relate well with the spirit in question, if their energy is well matched. On this note, it doesn't seem wise for someone naive or inexperienced to go after an extremely ancient, dark entity. The only exception is if it is a spirit with a tolerance for those still learning, one that cares to guide you along. When it comes to DA, you won't always find spirits that will tolerate this - from my experiences I gather that many appreciate when you are already prepared for their presence.

When you are matched perfectly with a spirit, it may be easier to bond and also easier to hold your place - it could take less strength to convince them of your intentions or leadership. With that said, it is important to be aware of what you want out of a relationship with a spirit BEFORE you invite them into your life. Really consider it. Even if a spirit is calling to you, it is crucial to know what you intend to share with them and how you will address them beforehand.

When a DA is with you and you are still uncertain, they can influence you to do things their way. I understand that sometimes things *develop* over time in ways you couldn't have expected, I am merely saying that you ought to have a plan of sorts for the start of your bond. When you are prepared, you automatically become a leader. Sometimes having a firm hand can mean knowing how to deal with things, showing confidence and awareness. Asking questions, taking charge of the situation. Working with DA spirits asks that you act as a leader in the way that you make well-informed reasonable decisions, you consult with your spirit family before coming to conclusions, you show them they are important in your life, and convey that you want to share a mutual trust/respect.
Also realise that if you carry positive attributes into your everyday life, they will notice and respect you based on how you live. One should think of how you come across to them with common dealings, and at times even speak with them about how you dealt with certain personal issues or work issues or whatever else.

In my DA family, the variety in personality amongst my spirits means a lot. By default my spirits understand that I am strong, they usually see my nature quickly and know that when I say something, I mean it.
I deal them the respect of understanding their individual nature, and being respectful of what they feel like doing - they appreciate this and as a result do not go off and do something that I wouldn't be happy about. As I have a more DA personality by default, I have a deep understanding of the way they are and many of my choices would match what they find to be suitable. Due to how I have been matched with my spirits, many of them share much in common with me or else enjoy me and seek to guide me in life. I am very thankful for how that turned out.
There are a couple of vampires that see me romantically, and I can be quite gentle with them - but at the same time because my nature is so apparent they respect me and do not push for circumstances I would not approve of. One was a husband of mine in a previous life, and he does not share leadership with me but I do trust him to act the way he sees fit when it comes to helping my situation.

I am at times quite casual with a few of my DA spirits, as they have the personality to embrace this form of interaction. I will joke with some or have fun, and it isn't always a leader/spirit bond - all that matters is that they know their major purpose here is to guide me and assist me in life. When it comes down to serious issues they are prepared to be serious and listen to me, or discuss a situation with me.
I am extremely close with my hellhound, and i'd say he acts more freely than many of the other spirits. I do not always give him specific missions, but he is constantly working on things and at times taking on tasks for me that he intuitively knows are of importance. Him and I were matched closely, we are a lot alike and we are friends - but the great thing is that due to the creatures we are, respect was always of major importance. He is a powerful, dark, and ancient energy himself - and as independent as he is, he is fiercely loyal to me through our bond. It is established that he wants what is in my best interest, and does not tolerate bs.

With spirits like these, it's not necessary to have a constantly firm hand as if they are out of control. A couple of them are a little more eager to get their way at times, and I make sure to tell them how things must be - but otherwise all that I share with these spirits makes them equal companions that I can trust not to get out of hand.
If ever such a moment comes where a DA of mine does not cooperate with me in this way, I must continue to act like a leader and take my place as leader in their presence - while still respecting their power and the fact they chose to be with me in the first place.

So in conclusion, it seems a "firm hand" can be defined in a few ways. If you seek to share loving connections with your DA spirits, a firm hand is more about being the best you can be - being a leader and most importantly bringing mutual respect into the picture before all else. Once respect is established, continue to be a leader in life and make an effort to really bond and know your spirits.

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thank you for posting this , please forgive me for sounding stupid but what do you mean by control and what exactly does a lead spirit do ? is it wrong to have a lead spirit ?

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Post by Lampropeltis »

Vampirelover, I don't wish to ignore you, but feel that someone else could give you clearer answers, so I'll leave it to someone else.

I have five Dark Art beings currently in my keep. Two of these, my Gargoyle and Neb Djinn are sweet tempered and would give the most light-handed keeper no trouble. My Karkadaan approaches me with tender docility most of the time. Though he has undertones of ferocity (that he does not like to reveal to me) and I had to strictly order him with a verbal warning to tone down an annoying form of manifestation on several occasions, he is for the most part, a wuv muffin. I have trouble visualizing anyone getting in major trouble with a spirit similar to him.

The other two, my Cerberus and Harpy, allow me less room for error.

You know how some people learn from the mistakes of others and others have to be those learned from? I wish to tell this short story, so that people can learn from my naivete. Shortly after I recieved my Cerberus, I was driving from point A to B and exited the freeway at a high rate of speed. I checked the rear-view mirror of my dinky little car, and saw the grill of a very large truck, and very little else. Twenty seconds later, the moronic tailgaiter turned off, leaving me twitching. My Cerberus expressed anger and flashed me the image of a truck with a crushed cab. Shocked, I informed him that that was not nice. He agreed, stating matter-of-factly that he was not nice. I forbade him to act, strictly reminding him of house rules. (Not inflicting permanent, long term or gratuitous harm on casual idiots just because they aggravate or stress me is near the top of the list) He grudgingly consented and I made sure we were crystal clear on the matter. Could he have gotten that guy into an accident? I don't know, nor do I ever wish to find something like that out. While nothing bad happened, it drove home what my loyal guardian who gives me puppy nuzzles and plays fetch with psi-balls is capable of.

My Harpy is on the lighter side. She has little inclination to start trouble, though she has every ability to finish it. Her cunning and energetic power greatly exceed mine. While I can handle her, (typically she's agreeable enough to handle herself) I can only do so in the way that a (sensible) sixteen year old can handle a high-performance race car. Sure, I can avoid crashing or running into anyone, but I have little room for finesse. Sure, I can avoid big trouble, and the wisdom she shares is a great boon, but I have a lot of room for improvement before I can do her justice.

I am not a natural-born Alpha or 'pack leader'. And if I attempted to pull off some sort of drill Sargeant routine, my spirit group would probably be debilitated with laughter. But I aim to be calm-assertive a la Cesar Milan which aside from the mental benefits builds 'currency' for when I must pull rank, and I aim to enforce rules fairly and consistently. I guess I fall into the 'firm hand' category, but oddly, firm handed doesn't have to be heavy handed. My house rules, for example, aren't the things that most White Art spirits would think to break, or that lighter Dark Art spirits would really challenge. And if a mid to darker Dark Arts spirit is denied an enjoyable bit of havoc wreaking, well, that's better than what they'd do with free rein.

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