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Sigils

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:14 pm
by SullyTheStag
This is mostly just a question based on terms and things, but are runes technically considered sigils if you write or carve them for magickal purposes, but also if you mix writing with chanting or spells of sorts (galdr) is it still considered a sigil or is it considered something else.

Re: Sigils

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:35 am
by Lewk
I'll have a go at answering this...this is the best I can come up with...

I tend to think of the words in terms of where they come from.

For me runes are from the Scandinavian historical / 'traditional' divination and magical practice. The letters are known and fixed. (Apart from some variations in alphabets and ascribed meanings.)

I'm only versed in a form of sigils magick that comes from Chaos magick. For me those kinds of sigils are not a fixed alphabet. They are more DIY. They can be custom designed / created according to what your working is for.

So I see them as from separate systems.

Sometimes when someone reaches an experienced intermediate or advanced level in a spiritual practice, they know how to design their own techniques - because they know what is going on underneath the surface. But unless someone who is talented has created an eclectic or syncretic system like the one you describe, that works, which mixes different elements, I would avoid mixing things the way you describe. Maybe that's just me. I'm no master or authority on any of this.

I feel the runes as resonating within the energies of the runic system and gods etc. Chaos magick sigil work feels to be resonating within a different magical and spiritual dimension, if you see what I mean. So I would have problems mixing the two personally.

I don't know if any of that thinking is useful.

Re: Sigils

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:13 pm
by SullyTheStag
I mean, I can learn from most things that have any educational basis regardless so I appreciate the answer either way. Now as for what runes resonate with energy wise I do believe has to do with things on a spiritual level, in my opinion from practicing them through meditation. As you begin to feel certain energies and they each have their own, personality I'd say, that do also resonate with gods as well. However the legitimacy of that statement I am not 100% percent positive of due to my beginner status as you said. Now also what would you define as chaos magick? Also I have somewhat seen some use galdr combined with writing runes but like many say, you must know how to read them well before you use them on such a level such as I am thinking of, because like you say it most likely may be mixing elements that shouldn't mix.

Re: Sigils

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:57 pm
by Regholdain
You could research runecasting. It is a specific system that discusses using the runes (Elder Futhark) for working magic. They go deeper than divination and would not be a sigil in the sense that you would create a sigil as a symbol to hold the power and intent of the magic that you are casting (from what I've seen others state). So, to me, very different. The runes are also certainly linked to Odin originally, and they are said to have certain "personality".

Re: Sigils

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:55 am
by SullyTheStag
I do believe I have already encountered a form of rune casting, and thats the main subject of magick I am pursuing currently, and in all honesty I think the confusion for me when it relates to sigils is that I essentially though that those were considered sigils, but I am glad that I now know they aren't considered that. To be honest I may do some more research into that form of magick as well but make more of an effort to rune casting. And yes, they definitely are.

Re: Sigils

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:54 pm
by Coervus
To be specific, runes are characters in a set of related Germanic writing systems prior to the adoption of Latin letters. Specifically, the current alphabet we are writing is called the alphabet because the first two letters in Greek were alpha and beta. In the elder futharc alphabet, the first letters are the vocal equivalents of F U TH A R and K.

So, runic magic is just written magic using an archaic wiritng system with ascribed meaning to the letters. The same could be done with Latin letters (and has been done historically, as well). Specific magic systems are unique in all the normal ways, but there is nothing inherent about the runes themselves that requires they be used with a particular magic system.

Re: Sigils

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:50 pm
by SullyTheStag
In a sense I can understand that in technicality it is simply just a written magick. I personally feel as if there is more to that, but I completely understand what you mean because from there its more so a personal revelation and opinion. Thanks for all of yall's help.

Re: Sigils

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:45 pm
by Regholdain
Coervus wrote:To be specific, runes are characters in a set of related Germanic writing systems prior to the adoption of Latin letters. Specifically, the current alphabet we are writing is called the alphabet because the first two letters in Greek were alpha and beta. In the elder futharc alphabet, the first letters are the vocal equivalents of F U TH A R and K.

So, runic magic is just written magic using an archaic wiritng system with ascribed meaning to the letters. The same could be done with Latin letters (and has been done historically, as well). Specific magic systems are unique in all the normal ways, but there is nothing inherent about the runes themselves that requires they be used with a particular magic system.

True, and what's interesting is their use in magic predates their use as a written language based on archaeological research.

I actually will be delving more into the runes soon as I have always been called to them and I finally have a set of water buffalo bone runes that I am very pleased with.

Re: Sigils

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:45 pm
by Lewk
I think my view is divergent: that there is a deeper level below the writing system. Perhaps I can say that has been my experience at any rate.

I learned rune divination and magic as a system in which each rune is acknowledged as having its own energy and effect. These are joined together to create magical runescripts focused on a particular situation and goal. This was Murry Hope's system. It is one of her light/white arts spiritual occult systems. She was a British occultist, wiccan priestess and new age author who co-founded the Atlantean Society in the 1950s.

I also in the 1980s briefly took an interest in a book I remember as being called Futhark. (It may have been Stephen Flowers' / aka Edred Thorsson's, who seems to have been caught up in some occult community controversy since). Anyway, whatever the book was, in it the author opined that some German Nazi group(s) had used runic magical visualisation methods and gave details of how to meditate on the runes. The experience again was quite deep (for me). As if each rune has a mystical personality - or energy really.

The point is the runes can be far more than just a writing system.

Chaos magic sigil work seem to have originated with Austin Osman Spare. Medieval sigils (seemingly fixed mystical symbols) were left behind and nowadays you basically make your own sigil symbol up as needed.

The book I learned a practical sigil magic technique from is called 'Beyond Duality: the Art of Transcendence', by Laurence Galian. He includes a hermetic approach, using something called the triangle of manifestation, in which sigils are a core part of the overall magical method in the book.

Can you believe he was actually teaching that as a community education course too?

Re: Sigils

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:56 pm
by SullyTheStag
I agree with you there lewk, I still need to find some more rune divination things that I am satisfied with but I will however look into Murry Hope and perhaps I will be able to find that book you talked about because I feel as if that would be tremendously helpful as most things I have done concerning runes I honestly have done for myself, and most likely made many many mistakes. Right now on my path I am going to be focusing on the ansuz and othala runes because I feel a calling to them, along with learning how to properly use runes as well. Because, I have realized there is far more I need to learn in this subject. Now I also do believe they are also far far more than a writing system, or at least the elder futhark I feel is. To me the younger and Latin futharks tend to be more of a writing system.