I have some concerns

[quantumflux]

Hermetism, chaos magIck, the faerie tradatuin, I’m learning raja yoga right now, I’ve worked with some of Koettings stuff, and astrology to a dagree.

[quantumflux]

Oh and some of the golden dawns stuff.

[quantumflux]

By the way have you read the corpus hermeticum? I recommended it as a thread as a source. I’m

By the way I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said they don’t work for everyone. I said they don’t work for everyone but I never said they don’t apply to everyone.

[Charles_Odinforce]

I've read through the Corpus Hermeticum in bits and pieces. Many of those methods you listed are fairly Christian oriented, and while I've pulled from them for the structure I tend to avoid them in favor of something a little closer to traditional paganry. I'd worked more closely with methods from those systems in my youth, but that was also some time ago and I've stepped away from anything remotely Christian in my own workings.

As for the application, I'll give you a thought on that.

From a Traditional Norse Perspective (I am not THAT traditional as an FYI) the Hermetic Principals themselves are nothing more than hand waving in an effort to explain that which instead must be felt and dealt with directly. They wouldn't even apply to the old Norse Cosmology. Instead if anything, the Norse recognized the power in emotion, verse, and how symbols and verse could come together to create magick. Litterally, they would tell you that your methods don't apply to them. If you want an idea of how traditional Norse viewed the world though, consider a quick read through The Havamal. They were very result and goal oriented, with explanation seen as being only useful when it bettered one for the goal.

That all said, I still find the Hermetic Principals valuable, I just also recognize that many things we experience as valuable only exist as such for our own perspective. The oldest forms of magick don't adhere to those principals, often relying on long-forgotten folklore and associations that have little to do with anything remotely like a science.

The irony being, you could make a case that I'm arguing the first principal of Hermeticism as the highest, which many do, and that in that argument I prove it as the only principal. All things are mind.

[quantumflux]

I personally don’t care too much for the Christian aspect of the system. I much prefer working with the fae. I find that it aligns more with me.

I agree that the first principle of mentalism is the most potent. I don’t know why but the mind seems to be capable of making the rules to a degree. Althoufh I have yet to be unable to apply the other principles to something and not have it work out.

For example I have yet to find an application where polarity doesn’t apply in some way or another.

Let me take a look at your source. I’m willing to bet these principles apply.
Without having read it I can say this much
There are correspondences
I already know there will be polarity as I’m sure there will be posing forces.
And there will be masculine and feminine energies.

[quantumflux]

“From a Traditional Norse Perspective (I am not THAT traditional as an FYI) the Hermetic Principals themselves are nothing more than hand waving in an effort to explain that which instead must be felt and dealt with directly. “
It seems to me that the statement implies that these principles do not need to be experienced to be understood.

[quantumflux]

Verses 26 and 28

Polarity
Unwise vs. wise
“but he knows not one thing, what he shall answer,
if men shall put him to proof.”
Vs.
“Wise he is deemed who can question well,
and also answer back”

On one hand we have a person who does not have answers to give when put to the test

On the other hand we have a person who can not only give answers but ask questions of his own.

[Lewk]

sorry...I wish I knew how to delete this post. I made comments on the conversation at the top of this thread then spotted that it has gone way past that after I submitted my post. I seem to keep doing that (luckily not so much here).

[quantumflux]

You can just unsubscribe if you’re not interested anymore

Just trying to prove the point that while These principles are not directly in other coltures and systems. the concept behind them is still there.

[Charles_Odinforce]

I'd argue the concepts can be applied. This is similar in a sense to the Roman view that all Gods were aspects or counterparts to their Gods. They believed Odin was Jupiter and Thor was Mars, which is how we have so many mistakenly taking Thor as "The Primary God of War" when the entire Norse Pantheon was filled with war Gods (Thor simply being the one who hit hardest, in theory). So what I mean to say on this, is that when you take a system that is broad enough, you can generally fit your ideas within it. Especially a system that has 7 very vague principals.

Let's take the "Principal of Vibration."

This is one of those concepts that by its nature attempts to explain mysticism within its own system by using pseudo-science to do so. It mixes science with the mystical application.

Going back to Animistic/Shamanic practices that many old cultures stem from they would say "if everything is vibrating, and the higher the vibration, take this rock to Asgard." Then they would leave you to it. If the rock did not disappear, you'd be considered a fraud in their system. Instead, they would apply that all things have a spirit and that you could only take the spirit to another realm.

Likewise, under a system of animism, I could take any functional hermetic experiment and explain it in the context of spirits. Likewise with Shamanism.

My point is not to argue individual systems though, but to instead help you see there are many, many systems that function just fine without Hermeticism. To say it is the core only applies to the smallest bit of magickal practice (the past 100+ years or so) and attempts to by virtue of appropriating scientific terms for its own use lend credence to the system.

Now that may not be your goal; however many Hermetics do just that. They take a "high horse approach."

What I'm saying is that other systems of understanding exist, are equally valid, and often times completely separate with no need for Hermeticism.

Though if you do want to seriously look into the types of systems I'm referring to you will need to dig for reference material. What we have left of Norse Mysticism tells us that sound/words had power, items/pieces of things had power intrinsically, and will itself was a power unto itself. We have a scant bit of knowledge on runes that modern practitioners (including myself) have expanded upon through either experiment, experience, or simply bluster.

It pains me to no end the amount of knowledge on old Norse Mysticism that was lost.

Still, this is not the place to lament the destruction of my people's ways.

Don't get me wrong though, there are going to be parallels. I suspect more and more that Hermeticism started with the single principle of the mind in an understanding of "that which we can invest the truest faith in, we can make into reality" and then through that expanded into things the authors believed were universal (such as the idea of vibrational states and how this coincides with metaphysics).

To give another example, the vibrational model while working well enough I'm sure you'd agree isn't the same as the models of understanding used in Qi Energy work and various other arts from the surrounding areas. Instead, those methods focus on "storing more energy" as well as "efficient flow" as ideas. Vibrational states in this context may coincide, but the model used to explain remains totally different.

So, in closing, I'm not trying to sway you, but I will stand by a simple statement.

More often you can apply your system, whoever you are, universally to all other systems to understand them for your own sake. Less often does that mean you understand the systems you are applying it to in the way one working in that system only/directly would.

Or to give a comparison. I didn't understand Karate till I could box. Once I understood boxing the principal, while different, was sufficient for me to make sense of Karate. Does that mean I understand Karate as a master of it would? Certainly not, I understand it from the mentality of a boxer. That means I understand it better than laymen, and less than an expert in that field.