ASTER wrote: ↑Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:09 am This was such beautiful sharing. Amazing, provision. I know about the filling of the Holy Spirit within my entire being. Keep your treasure actively cherished by calling on the Lord of Life often. I do have lots of high angles with me too. Angels are ministering spirits from God and they provide so much joy and protection, healing, tender loving care ect.

Kvedulf133 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:55 am I'm now in search of possible ancient christian magic.. anyone have any thoughts on books or threads they might have come across?

Lewk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:37 pm

Kvedulf133 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:55 am I'm now in search of possible ancient christian magic.. anyone have any thoughts on books or threads they might have come across?

This looks interesting...but expensive, as it's probably out of print.

Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power Marvin W. Meyer and Richard Smith, ‎ Princeton University Press; 1st Edition (March 15, 1999)

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Christia ... 504&sr=8-1

If I remember correctly, there was an early split in the Christian community between those who thought personal experience was the key thing (see Gnostics wikipedia article below) and those who wanted to wrest control over the early Christian Church's organisation and over what Christians were allowed to believe. The Gnostics lost and nearly had all traces of them eradicated. That seems like it was a mystical tradition but afaik it was not particularly magical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

The Coptic Church was, according to tradition, founded in Egypt by an apostle of Jesus - Mark. And was very influential early on. They seem to have been steeped in magical tradition, as perhaps was typical of Egyptian society at the time anyway.

I can't speak for whether the book is what you need but I'm guessing it's a valuable reference on the surviving original sources on such things.

Whether or not things like the PaterNoster 'magical' word square - Sator Tenet Opera Rotas - was actually magical, or a cryptic way to encode a Christian message, is apparently a controversial (ie uncertain) matter. In any case, that emerged around the mid first century AD, centuries before I think the medieval Christian magical phase began.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square

The Lord's prayer in the Bible's New Testament is based on a Jewish kabbalistic prayer. But I understand it was really only in the medieval period - ie not ancient times - that Christian occultists began to incorporate kabbalistic features into a Christianised form of magical practice. Kabbala was originally a Jewish mystical/magical tradition - ie not strictly speaking an ancient Christian one. The fact that The Lord's Prayer appears in 2 gospels may be because Jesus/Yeshua actually taught that to his followers and that his cousin John the Baptist taught that to other Essenes - a mystical Jewish sect. (It seems very credible to me that John the Baptist and Jesus/Yeshua could have been Essenes at some point.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

Yet this would probably have been because Christianity emerged from a Judaic society. Apparently - according to historical documentaries I've seen - for quite a while the first Christians most likely also considered themselves religiously Jewish and do not seem to have been into magic. (There are even stories in the New Testament told against well known practicing magicians of the time.)

tl/dr: If you're looking for ancient Christian magic, the early Coptics may be the best source, as they seem to have been steeped in magic. I haven't read the book but I doubt that Christ was the source of the magical tradition. I suspect it was a barely-Christianised version of Egyptian folk magic. If you want medieval versions, again In my view they're not ultimately Christian in origin but are Christianised versions of kabbala or folk magic.

There's a minority tradition that Jesus did learn magic and healing in Egypt (see the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus Christ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aquar ... the_Christ

There's also a minority tradition that not only did Saint Thomas go to India after the crucifixion of Jesus but that Jesus himself (Issa) went there and to Tibet afterward too and lived out the rest of his natural days there. I watched a fascinating documentary on that. There are also speculated links between the Essenes to India. Could the Essenes have learned yogic breathing techniques from India and did Jesus use yogic training to appear dead while only in suspended animation?

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_India_(book)

In some minority traditions Jesus is seen rather as an Ascended Master with special powers.

None of these kind of speculations have any convincing evidence behind them but they're all attractive theories. I wouldn't go so far as to say they count as ancient Christian magic - but I think some later Christian magicians may have thought of Jesus more as an ascended master with paranormal powers than as the literal son of Jehovah/Yahweh in a classic religious sense. Or maybe a mixture of both.

The thing with events that happened so long ago is we can't really separate truth from speculation and there have been layer upon layer of retelling the stories, so it's hard to identify what the original narrative even was.

I hope some of that was useful, or at least interesting.

PS See https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... and-magic/. Early Christians seem to have continued with pre-Christian habits, such as wearing amulets. Like European pre-Christian practices seem to have survived as folk magic for centuries after Christianity arrived.

Kvedulf133 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:11 am

Lewk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:37 pm

Kvedulf133 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:55 am I'm now in search of possible ancient christian magic.. anyone have any thoughts on books or threads they might have come across?

This looks interesting...but expensive, as it's probably out of print.

Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power Marvin W. Meyer and Richard Smith, ‎ Princeton University Press; 1st Edition (March 15, 1999)

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Christia ... 504&sr=8-1

If I remember correctly, there was an early split in the Christian community between those who thought personal experience was the key thing (see Gnostics wikipedia article below) and those who wanted to wrest control over the early Christian Church's organisation and over what Christians were allowed to believe. The Gnostics lost and nearly had all traces of them eradicated. That seems like it was a mystical tradition but afaik it was not particularly magical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

The Coptic Church was, according to tradition, founded in Egypt by an apostle of Jesus - Mark. And was very influential early on. They seem to have been steeped in magical tradition, as perhaps was typical of Egyptian society at the time anyway.

I can't speak for whether the book is what you need but I'm guessing it's a valuable reference on the surviving original sources on such things.

Whether or not things like the PaterNoster 'magical' word square - Sator Tenet Opera Rotas - was actually magical, or a cryptic way to encode a Christian message, is apparently a controversial (ie uncertain) matter. In any case, that emerged around the mid first century AD, centuries before I think the medieval Christian magical phase began.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square

The Lord's prayer in the Bible's New Testament is based on a Jewish kabbalistic prayer. But I understand it was really only in the medieval period - ie not ancient times - that Christian occultists began to incorporate kabbalistic features into a Christianised form of magical practice. Kabbala was originally a Jewish mystical/magical tradition - ie not strictly speaking an ancient Christian one. The fact that The Lord's Prayer appears in 2 gospels may be because Jesus/Yeshua actually taught that to his followers and that his cousin John the Baptist taught that to other Essenes - a mystical Jewish sect. (It seems very credible to me that John the Baptist and Jesus/Yeshua could have been Essenes at some point.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

Yet this would probably have been because Christianity emerged from a Judaic society. Apparently - according to historical documentaries I've seen - for quite a while the first Christians most likely also considered themselves religiously Jewish and do not seem to have been into magic. (There are even stories in the New Testament told against well known practicing magicians of the time.)

tl/dr: If you're looking for ancient Christian magic, the early Coptics may be the best source, as they seem to have been steeped in magic. I haven't read the book but I doubt that Christ was the source of the magical tradition. I suspect it was a barely-Christianised version of Egyptian folk magic. If you want medieval versions, again In my view they're not ultimately Christian in origin but are Christianised versions of kabbala or folk magic.

There's a minority tradition that Jesus did learn magic and healing in Egypt (see the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus Christ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aquar ... the_Christ

There's also a minority tradition that not only did Saint Thomas go to India after the crucifixion of Jesus but that Jesus himself (Issa) went there and to Tibet afterward too and lived out the rest of his natural days there. I watched a fascinating documentary on that. There are also speculated links between the Essenes to India. Could the Essenes have learned yogic breathing techniques from India and did Jesus use yogic training to appear dead while only in suspended animation?

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_India_(book)

In some minority traditions Jesus is seen rather as an Ascended Master with special powers.

None of these kind of speculations have any convincing evidence behind them but they're all attractive theories. I wouldn't go so far as to say they count as ancient Christian magic - but I think some later Christian magicians may have thought of Jesus more as an ascended master with paranormal powers than as the literal son of Jehovah/Yahweh in a classic religious sense. Or maybe a mixture of both.

The thing with events that happened so long ago is we can't really separate truth from speculation and there have been layer upon layer of retelling the stories, so it's hard to identify what the original narrative even was.

I hope some of that was useful, or at least interesting.

PS See https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... and-magic/. Early Christians seem to have continued with pre-Christian habits, such as wearing amulets. Like European pre-Christian practices seem to have survived as folk magic for centuries after Christianity arrived.

Speaking of which you're right actually. The bible does warn us against doing witchcraft period. I actually remember a video of this guy on youtube describing a circle in hell made just for people who do magic. Their limbs are forced to contort over and over in grotesque shapes. Creepy. Anyways cheers and happy new years!

CH Moderator wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:12 am

Kvedulf133 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 01, 2023 10:11 am

Lewk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:37 pm

Kvedulf133 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:55 am I'm now in search of possible ancient christian magic.. anyone have any thoughts on books or threads they might have come across?

This looks interesting...but expensive, as it's probably out of print.

Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power Marvin W. Meyer and Richard Smith, ‎ Princeton University Press; 1st Edition (March 15, 1999)

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Christia ... 504&sr=8-1

If I remember correctly, there was an early split in the Christian community between those who thought personal experience was the key thing (see Gnostics wikipedia article below) and those who wanted to wrest control over the early Christian Church's organisation and over what Christians were allowed to believe. The Gnostics lost and nearly had all traces of them eradicated. That seems like it was a mystical tradition but afaik it was not particularly magical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

The Coptic Church was, according to tradition, founded in Egypt by an apostle of Jesus - Mark. And was very influential early on. They seem to have been steeped in magical tradition, as perhaps was typical of Egyptian society at the time anyway.

I can't speak for whether the book is what you need but I'm guessing it's a valuable reference on the surviving original sources on such things.

Whether or not things like the PaterNoster 'magical' word square - Sator Tenet Opera Rotas - was actually magical, or a cryptic way to encode a Christian message, is apparently a controversial (ie uncertain) matter. In any case, that emerged around the mid first century AD, centuries before I think the medieval Christian magical phase began.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square

The Lord's prayer in the Bible's New Testament is based on a Jewish kabbalistic prayer. But I understand it was really only in the medieval period - ie not ancient times - that Christian occultists began to incorporate kabbalistic features into a Christianised form of magical practice. Kabbala was originally a Jewish mystical/magical tradition - ie not strictly speaking an ancient Christian one. The fact that The Lord's Prayer appears in 2 gospels may be because Jesus/Yeshua actually taught that to his followers and that his cousin John the Baptist taught that to other Essenes - a mystical Jewish sect. (It seems very credible to me that John the Baptist and Jesus/Yeshua could have been Essenes at some point.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

Yet this would probably have been because Christianity emerged from a Judaic society. Apparently - according to historical documentaries I've seen - for quite a while the first Christians most likely also considered themselves religiously Jewish and do not seem to have been into magic. (There are even stories in the New Testament told against well known practicing magicians of the time.)

tl/dr: If you're looking for ancient Christian magic, the early Coptics may be the best source, as they seem to have been steeped in magic. I haven't read the book but I doubt that Christ was the source of the magical tradition. I suspect it was a barely-Christianised version of Egyptian folk magic. If you want medieval versions, again In my view they're not ultimately Christian in origin but are Christianised versions of kabbala or folk magic.

There's a minority tradition that Jesus did learn magic and healing in Egypt (see the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus Christ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aquar ... the_Christ

There's also a minority tradition that not only did Saint Thomas go to India after the crucifixion of Jesus but that Jesus himself (Issa) went there and to Tibet afterward too and lived out the rest of his natural days there. I watched a fascinating documentary on that. There are also speculated links between the Essenes to India. Could the Essenes have learned yogic breathing techniques from India and did Jesus use yogic training to appear dead while only in suspended animation?

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_India_(book)

In some minority traditions Jesus is seen rather as an Ascended Master with special powers.

None of these kind of speculations have any convincing evidence behind them but they're all attractive theories. I wouldn't go so far as to say they count as ancient Christian magic - but I think some later Christian magicians may have thought of Jesus more as an ascended master with paranormal powers than as the literal son of Jehovah/Yahweh in a classic religious sense. Or maybe a mixture of both.

The thing with events that happened so long ago is we can't really separate truth from speculation and there have been layer upon layer of retelling the stories, so it's hard to identify what the original narrative even was.

I hope some of that was useful, or at least interesting.

PS See https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... and-magic/. Early Christians seem to have continued with pre-Christian habits, such as wearing amulets. Like European pre-Christian practices seem to have survived as folk magic for centuries after Christianity arrived.

Speaking of which you're right actually. The bible does warn us against doing witchcraft period. I actually remember a video of this guy on youtube describing a circle in hell made just for people who do magic. Their limbs are forced to contort over and over in grotesque shapes. Creepy. Anyways cheers and happy new years!

I do hope you realize this is an open forum that deals with spirit keeping, magick, mysticism, supernatural and spirituality. I have noticed some of your talking points always leads to the faith you are practicing. It is fine as long it is done respectfully

You must also understand there are many practitioners of magick here. Please mind this and word your thoughts accordingly.

I am attaching a snapshot of this forum's logo, in case you missed seeing it.

Lewk wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:37 pm

Kvedulf133 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 30, 2022 8:55 am I'm now in search of possible ancient christian magic.. anyone have any thoughts on books or threads they might have come across?

This looks interesting...but expensive, as it's probably out of print.

Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power Marvin W. Meyer and Richard Smith, ‎ Princeton University Press; 1st Edition (March 15, 1999)

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Christia ... 504&sr=8-1

If I remember correctly, there was an early split in the Christian community between those who thought personal experience was the key thing (see Gnostics wikipedia article below) and those who wanted to wrest control over the early Christian Church's organisation and over what Christians were allowed to believe. The Gnostics lost and nearly had all traces of them eradicated. That seems like it was a mystical tradition but afaik it was not particularly magical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

The Coptic Church was, according to tradition, founded in Egypt by an apostle of Jesus - Mark. And was very influential early on. They seem to have been steeped in magical tradition, as perhaps was typical of Egyptian society at the time anyway.

I can't speak for whether the book is what you need but I'm guessing it's a valuable reference on the surviving original sources on such things.

Whether or not things like the PaterNoster 'magical' word square - Sator Tenet Opera Rotas - was actually magical, or a cryptic way to encode a Christian message, is apparently a controversial (ie uncertain) matter. In any case, that emerged around the mid first century AD, centuries before I think the medieval Christian magical phase began.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sator_Square

The Lord's prayer in the Bible's New Testament is based on a Jewish kabbalistic prayer. But I understand it was really only in the medieval period - ie not ancient times - that Christian occultists began to incorporate kabbalistic features into a Christianised form of magical practice. Kabbala was originally a Jewish mystical/magical tradition - ie not strictly speaking an ancient Christian one. The fact that The Lord's Prayer appears in 2 gospels may be because Jesus/Yeshua actually taught that to his followers and that his cousin John the Baptist taught that to other Essenes - a mystical Jewish sect. (It seems very credible to me that John the Baptist and Jesus/Yeshua could have been Essenes at some point.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

Yet this would probably have been because Christianity emerged from a Judaic society. Apparently - according to historical documentaries I've seen - for quite a while the first Christians most likely also considered themselves religiously Jewish and do not seem to have been into magic. (There are even stories in the New Testament told against well known practicing magicians of the time.)

tl/dr: If you're looking for ancient Christian magic, the early Coptics may be the best source, as they seem to have been steeped in magic. I haven't read the book but I doubt that Christ was the source of the magical tradition. I suspect it was a barely-Christianised version of Egyptian folk magic. If you want medieval versions, again In my view they're not ultimately Christian in origin but are Christianised versions of kabbala or folk magic.

There's a minority tradition that Jesus did learn magic and healing in Egypt (see the Aquarian Gospel of Jesus Christ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aquar ... the_Christ

There's also a minority tradition that not only did Saint Thomas go to India after the crucifixion of Jesus but that Jesus himself (Issa) went there and to Tibet afterward too and lived out the rest of his natural days there. I watched a fascinating documentary on that. There are also speculated links between the Essenes to India. Could the Essenes have learned yogic breathing techniques from India and did Jesus use yogic training to appear dead while only in suspended animation?

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_India_(book)

In some minority traditions Jesus is seen rather as an Ascended Master with special powers.

None of these kind of speculations have any convincing evidence behind them but they're all attractive theories. I wouldn't go so far as to say they count as ancient Christian magic - but I think some later Christian magicians may have thought of Jesus more as an ascended master with paranormal powers than as the literal son of Jehovah/Yahweh in a classic religious sense. Or maybe a mixture of both.

The thing with events that happened so long ago is we can't really separate truth from speculation and there have been layer upon layer of retelling the stories, so it's hard to identify what the original narrative even was.

I hope some of that was useful, or at least interesting.

PS See https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... and-magic/. Early Christians seem to have continued with pre-Christian habits, such as wearing amulets. Like European pre-Christian practices seem to have survived as folk magic for centuries after Christianity arrived.